Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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Bossmuff wrote:
Ayasato-chan wrote:
Oh please, do tell.
I've already mentioned a few of them in this thread, such as agreeing with that Phoenix's death should be ambiguous and that there should be a possibility that he will be still alive that will not be resolved until the end.
The thing I see with this is that it will immediately affect everyone on a personal level that will alter how the investigation will go. Apollo will be torn in defending the person who may have killed his mentor, particularly if the client' innocence comes into question for him. I would like to have the possibility presented, sometime near the middle or later in the trial, where the client could be guilty (seems to be hiding something, and evidence is strongly pointing to the client). This could lead to a lot of turmoil and anger, particularly between Ema and Trucy.
I think that Ema's reaction might be interesting. She respects Phoenix a great deal as the man who saved her and her sister. I'd think she'd be driven to find Phoenix, even at the expense of the investigation; conversely, she could throw herself entirely into finding evidence to put away the defendent. I wonder if, after Apollo has successfuly prolonged the trial by defending his client, she might end of considering forging evidence to implicate the defendent. This would be poetic, given her history:
Spoiler: 1-5
I could seriously see her and Apollo getting into a screaming match over the defendent's guilt or innocent, and an apparant betrayal of Wright.
Trucy would just be a wreck. As Mia_Fey suggested, she's probably have her adorable mind broken by losing her Daddy in such a way. I'd personally milk this for all it was worth (possibly having her and Apollo witness the 'murder', and Phoenix falling into a rushing river or something). She might even freak out at Apollo at times for defending the 'murderer', especially if the evidence becomes sketchy.
This could also be an opportunity for either Edgeworth or Franziska to prosecute the last case as the 'final boss prosecutor'. Both would take a personal stake in prosecuting (Edgeworth for his respect for Phoenix, and Franziska for her protective rivalry). This could add to the drama, especially if they berate Apollo for 'betraying' his mentor.
Even the Judge might be divided on the case, as he respected Phoenix as a lawyer. The jury, being made up of various people, may be severely split over the issue - some people either love or despise Phoenix, and public opinions could clash.
Spoiler: 4-1
I'd also like it if this entire murder turns out to be part of one of Phoenix's plans that gets out of his control. Essentially, part of the trial reveals that Phoenix was planning something else, and it inadvertantly resulted in the events. Make it a conspiracy, with people hiding various aspects. I'd want it to be as intricate and convoluted as possible, but there might need to be a balance. Also, it would be good if you're trying to show Phoenix 'going too far' with his new laxer morality. I could even see some VERY sketchy things coming up regarding Phoenix, although this might not work if they want him to remain a mildly-grey good guy.
As a minor point, I think it would be cool to have Olga Orly as the defendent. They could make her into a 'theme' defendent, like Maggey was (Maggey was in two cases, both where she nearly got screwed over because of Wright, although of no fault of his own). I could see them having Olga return as someone who ends up getting into trouble due to proximity with Phoenix Wright, being implicated for a crime that directly involves him.
There we go. Tiredness has granted your request.
As for playable Phoenix....it could be done, but I think that they should develop Apollo rather than split time between them. He'd become too much of Phoenix's 'plot bitch', and not get enough time to develop his own story - I'd like to see a final case where Apollo handles it on his own, hence one of the reasons I like this so much.
Great idea!
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Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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That's all I can say. Yikes.
I really hope that AA5 isn't the last game though. But if what you heard is true, then that'll probably be the case
Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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Zarkanorf wrote:
The other rumor I heard is that the last case was going to reveal a "behind-the-scenes" villain that was a puppeteer with all of the previous cases, and it was a character that was a part of the first three GS games (5 bucks and my hat on Gumshoe, rofl)!
So you know, it's been confirmed that this information came from a fake interview. We really still know nothing.
As for Bossmuff's idea, that could actually work if they decided that they really had to kill Phoenix off. I still really don't want him dead and that is a point that could, in fact, turn me off the series, but that could work as a pretty interesting case. Honestly though, I'm not sure there is anything they could do to make me be okay with Phoenix dying. If Phoenix ended up alive at the end of it, then I would be happy to play that case, but having him truly be dead would probably ruin it for me. The only part I really dislike in the idea is this whole idea of Phoenix "going too far." His ethics may be a bit strained in the fourth game, but everything he did was well-thought out, carefully handled, and only done because he truly believed that it was the only way to find the truth while protecting all innocents involved. And to be fair, his actions and thought processes haven't changed that much in the game. It's just what you would expect to see in a person after seven years, particularly with what he had been through. He isn't crooked in the fourth game and I really don't want to see them twist his character to the point where he is crooked. But that's just me.
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Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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Mia_Fey wrote:
The only part I really dislike in the idea is this whole idea of Phoenix "going too far." His ethics may be a bit strained in the fourth game, but everything he did was well-thought out, carefully handled, and only done because he truly believed that it was the only way to find the truth while protecting all innocents involved. And to be fair, his actions and thought processes haven't changed that much in the game. It's just what you would expect to see in a person after seven years, particularly with what he had been through. He isn't crooked in the fourth game and I really don't want to see them twist his character to the point where he is crooked. But that's just me.
QFT.
I think that
should be a lot more relaxed in the fifth game, now that he's exacted HIS REVENGE!!! /evillaughJoking aside, though, I do think that Hobo Nick will go back to the more-or-less straight and narrow now that he's
Spoiler: 4-4
Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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Mia_Fey wrote:
So you know, it's been confirmed that this information came from a fake interview. We really still know nothing.
Thanks for the heads up! :D
Mia_Fey wrote:
As for Bossmuff's idea, that could actually work if they decided that they really had to kill Phoenix off.
...
He isn't crooked in the fourth game and I really don't want to see them twist his character to the point where he is crooked. But that's just me.
Phoenix is just misunderstood by the people around him. :c...
He isn't crooked in the fourth game and I really don't want to see them twist his character to the point where he is crooked. But that's just me.
And you're right; he doesn't have to be "killed off", and he even doesn't have to die. Maybe he fakes the death to run away from the would-be murderer! I mean, if someone tried to kill you and you were granted with a sliver of luck to escape, would you stay out in the open?
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Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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Zarkanorf wrote:
Spoiler: Spacesaver
Thankfulations.
That's the general idea. Also, I feel like the games can do with some real tears-of-rage angst. I get the impression from AJ that the GS series is getting a bit more dramatic, for some reason.
Quote:
Spoiler: Spacesaver
Well, creating new characters is no problem. Remember that we have seven years to work with that are largely unaccounted for, as well as the three years prior and the year anteceding. Plenty of time to make up new characters to have an association to Mr. Wright and new backstories that involve him.
I don't really think we need a flashback case to explain it, though; whether it happened when he was a lawyer or when he was a card player, it could all be done by witness testimony.
As for development, it doesn't really have to focus on Phoenix to exclusion; Apollo is bound to develop from this, as he's put on his own and will have a case he has to solve entirely on his own. Trucy's not going to be that useful assuming the trauma kicks in, and we'll definitely see some development of others, since Phoenix apparantly knows everyone.
As for the rumours, we'll see what happens with that.
Mia_fey wrote:
Spoiler: Spacesaver
Well, it all depends if he gets in a situation where he feels he HAS to do something sketchy. As we see him now, he's not amoral, just willing to bend and break the rules to get at the 'truth'. It's a possibility that he may decide he needs to do something a bit dodgy in order to pursue and uncover a greater truth or save someone's life, and he could end up having it get out of hand.
I'm not saying he's going to become the new Damon Gant, though. He's probably not going to get to that level, barring any extreme injustices that require vigilante rulebreaking. He's not sociopathic, and while he seems more inclined to pursue the truth than protect people in court now, he's not going to become completely Machiavellian.
Spoiler: 4-4
Still, I do think it's possible that he could end up doing something illegal or unethical in order to save a life or uncover a truth. He's shown capacity for that, as long as it's not too amoral and doesn't hurt anyone who doesn't truly deserve it.
I mean, I wouldn't mind seeing Phoenix go Gant at some point (I can see how they could do it and make it make sense), but it's probably not going to happen. The only way to do it would be to do it gradually, and even then it's more likely that someone else sees it happening and intervenes. More emotional drama for that, too. It would be more interesting story-wise for him to start down the Gant path and stop/be stopped than it would if he became an opportunistic, Machiavellian bastard.
Zarkanorf wrote:
Spoiler: Spacesaver
Not a bad idea. It makes sense, given Phoenix's character, and could lead to confusion in the case (and also stress, especially if a criminal who was SUPPOSED to have captured him alive suddenly finds that he was never found and brought to the hideout, leaving the trail cold).
You might be able to explain why he wouldn't contact his familyto let them know he was alive. The only thing I could think of is that he'd want the trial to continue, to entrap the real culprit.
Personally, I still think it would be better to have him actually in danger, rather than just pretending for a plan. I would actually like the case to be a plan of his that goes awry, for once; he seems to have everything entirely under control most times, and having something go wrong and have serious reprecussions would be cool.
Also, I would like Apollo to be the one who 'rescues' him, if he's not already dead. It'll prove Apollo's abilities and effectively get us out of the 'Phoenix is orchestrating events' mentality, that seemed prevalent throughout all the GS4 cases.
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Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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Bossmuff wrote:
I mean, I wouldn't mind seeing Phoenix go Gant at some point (I can see how they could do it and make it make sense), but it's probably not going to happen. The only way to do it would be to do it gradually, and even then it's more likely that someone else sees it happening and intervenes. More emotional drama for that, too. It would be more interesting story-wise for him to start down the Gant path and stop/be stopped than it would if he became an opportunistic, Machiavellian bastard.
Well, you and I will have to agree to disagree on this point. This is another one of those points that would make me cry and get me seriously pissed with the series. It's one thing to bend the rules every once in a while, as Phoenix has a tendency to do, while being very careful. It's another to break them recklessly. Never do I want to see Phoenix act like Gant or even come close to that point.
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Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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Bossmuff wrote:
Zarkanorf wrote:
Spoiler: Spacesaver
Not a bad idea. It makes sense, given Phoenix's character, and could lead to confusion in the case (and also stress, especially if a criminal who was SUPPOSED to have captured him alive suddenly finds that he was never found and brought to the hideout, leaving the trail cold).
You might be able to explain why he wouldn't contact his familyto let them know he was alive. The only thing I could think of is that he'd want the trial to continue, to entrap the real culprit.
Personally, I still think it would be better to have him actually in danger, rather than just pretending for a plan. I would actually like the case to be a plan of his that goes awry, for once; he seems to have everything entirely under control most times, and having something go wrong and have serious reprecussions would be cool.
Also, I would like Apollo to be the one who 'rescues' him, if he's not already dead. It'll prove Apollo's abilities and effectively get us out of the 'Phoenix is orchestrating events' mentality, that seemed prevalent throughout all the GS4 cases.
I agree with the last point, that Apollo could use a bit of play-up, since all we've done so far is establish that he's still a rookie, even after four cases.
Spoiler: all GS4 cases in a nutshell
I don't see Phoenix going the Gant route, though. I think he's too firmly rooted in other types of values...I mean, even though he's ultimately after the truth now, he started out as a defense attorney, who was willing to risk a lot to save innocent lives. I think he still has that altruistic streak in him, and even though he does hold justice and truth in very, VERY high regard, he also has a family - a daughter he loves, even if she's not his own - to keep him weighted down in reality, and to remind him just what justice really means. He has a lot of good friends who share these kinds of views; Maya, for one, who has a connection with the dead and who therefore keeps ties with family and friends extremely strong, even reaching into the afterlife; Edgeworth, who has undergone his own transformation and discovered his own strengths and limits...the list goes on.
But I can see Phoenix trying to stage some elaborate plan and "disappearing" on a gimmick in order to bring the truth to light, and I can even see Phoenix staging a plan and then accidentally getting into trouble (although the second one is less likely...I think nine years later, hobo Nick is a wiser and more worldly person than the person who got punched by Redd White and tazered by Von Karma the elder). I'd have to admit that killing Phoenix off would just be too much emotional trauma - for me! - for the entire cast, since, like we've all mentioned, he seems to know everyone in the entire AA universe. He has a lot of influence and friends in high places...if he were "killed" (or were to appear to have been killed) in might be an interesting chance to see what everyone really thinks of him, I suppose. But again, that would kind of focus on Phoenix. I think the main problem I have with this plotline (even though I love all of your ideas for an intriguing, tangled, thought-provoking final case involving his death, Bossmuff) is that it would throw all the attention right back on Phoenix. Even if Apollo is the one who miraculously saves the day and saves Phoenix's life, even if Apollo wins all kinds of acclaim for it and makes a name for himself...it will be because he saved THE Phoenix Wright's life. And Phoenix is already famous enough. I think Phoenix is doing a great job manipulating things from the shadows, and if I can't be in his head, laughing at all of his subtly sarcastic remarks, I don't really want him stealing the spotlight.
Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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Mia_Fey wrote:
Well, you and I will have to agree to disagree on this point. This is another one of those points that would make me cry and get me seriously pissed with the series. It's one thing to bend the rules every once in a while, as Phoenix has a tendency to do, while being very careful. It's another to break them recklessly. Never do I want to see Phoenix act like Gant or even come close to that point.
Eh, each to their own. To be fair, they'd have to do it REALLY carefully to prevent it from seeming as a strech, which would require that they allude to it across all of the cases. That would detract a bit from ol' Polly, so I would say a big, resounding 'no' regarding that.
The closest I see would be his 'fatal' plan really skirting the lines of 'justified'. He might even realize it at the end, or be forced to realize it by Apollo/Trucy/the Prosecutor. That, I think, would be the best way to do it, if you do it at all. Apollo could effectively 'pull him back' from falling off the path of truth, and remind Phoenix of what he could end up becoming. That would probably be the closest they could do without making him into a bastard.
Even then, it's not really necessary. Just having him screw up or miss a detail would be enough for this kind of plot.
larie wrote:
But I can see Phoenix trying to stage some elaborate plan and "disappearing" on a gimmick in order to bring the truth to light, and I can even see Phoenix staging a plan and then accidentally getting into trouble (although the second one is less likely...I think nine years later, hobo Nick is a wiser and more worldly person than the person who got punched by Redd White and tazered by Von Karma the elder).
Still, he's not perfect. And I think he's due to have one of this plans hit a snag, particularly if it's a really big one. It would serve to show that he's not entirely in control, and that that there are some gambles that go sour.
The problem I have with the 'all is planned' aspect is that it makes Phoenix too impressive, and HE'LL get all the credit for the trial as being 'his plan'. It also makes him out as more of a jerk, since he's putting his family and all of his friends into emotional turmoil. I'm not sure he'll do that - even if he became extremely unethical in regards to the truth, he does care about his friends and family, and won't put them into danger or pain unless there's absolutely no other option. And even then, he probably wouldn't do it anyway.
Quote:
I'd have to admit that killing Phoenix off would just be too much emotional trauma - for me! - for the entire cast, since, like we've all mentioned, he seems to know everyone in the entire AA universe. He has a lot of influence and friends in high places...if he were "killed" (or were to appear to have been killed) in might be an interesting chance to see what everyone really thinks of him, I suppose. But again, that would kind of focus on Phoenix. I think the main problem I have with this plotline (even though I love all of your ideas for an intriguing, tangled, thought-provoking final case involving his death, Bossmuff) is that it would throw all the attention right back on Phoenix. Even if Apollo is the one who miraculously saves the day and saves Phoenix's life, even if Apollo wins all kinds of acclaim for it and makes a name for himself...it will be because he saved THE Phoenix Wright's life. And Phoenix is already famous enough. I think Phoenix is doing a great job manipulating things from the shadows, and if I can't be in his head, laughing at all of his subtly sarcastic remarks, I don't really want him stealing the spotlight.
I actually see it as a way for Apollo to truly prove himself as Phoenix's successor. If he rescues his mentor, particularly from a truly dangerous situation, it would be symbolic that he's is a great lawyer in his own right. Apollo, in rescuing the 'great' Phoenix Wright, effectively turns around the mentor debt, and thus completes his apprenticeship. And if it's due to Phoenix's mistake, Apollo is correcting the blunder, showing humility for the 'great' Phoenix Wright and proving his worth as a Wright's protege.
I don't really think it puts too much of a spotlight on Phoenix himself, any more than the other 'final' cases generally have personal stakes for the lawyer in question. It would be like Maya being kidnapped or Edgeworth going on trial - a friend is in danger, and the lawyer needs to rescue him from it. Phoenix may get some more history attached, but Apollo will make his name as 'the man who solved the Phoenix Wright case."
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Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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Bossmuff wrote:
I actually see it as a way for Apollo to truly prove himself as Phoenix's successor. If he rescues his mentor, particularly from a truly dangerous situation, it would be symbolic that he's is a great lawyer in his own right. Apollo, in rescuing the 'great' Phoenix Wright, effectively turns around the mentor debt, and thus completes his apprenticeship. And if it's due to Phoenix's mistake, Apollo is correcting the blunder, showing humility for the 'great' Phoenix Wright and proving his worth as a Wright's protege.
No thanks. Phoenix completed his 'apprenticeship' to Mia by finishing her life's work for her due to his own competence as a lawyer. In that scenario, Apollo would complete his apprenticeship due to Phoenix's incompetence.
Bossmuff wrote:
The closest I see would be his 'fatal' plan really skirting the lines of 'justified'. He might even realize it at the end, or be forced to realize it by Apollo/Trucy/the Prosecutor. That, I think, would be the best way to do it, if you do it at all. Apollo could effectively 'pull him back' from falling off the path of truth, and remind Phoenix of what he could end up becoming. That would probably be the closest they could do without making him into a bastard.
Why is there any need to send poor Phoenix into a deeper spiral of character flaws? They already largely ruined his life and much of what he worked for in the previous trilogy just so they could have Apollo star but still fulfill the requirement of having Phoenix as a major character in the game. I think Hobo Phoenix's personality is still awesome but some people don't like him, and they'd like him even less if the next game went down that direction. Unless of course the writers plan to 'kill' him off in the worst way possible - by absolving the attachment we formed to him during the initial trilogy by warping his character beyond recognition.
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Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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icer wrote:
Bossmuff wrote:
I actually see it as a way for Apollo to truly prove himself as Phoenix's successor. If he rescues his mentor, particularly from a truly dangerous situation, it would be symbolic that he's is a great lawyer in his own right. Apollo, in rescuing the 'great' Phoenix Wright, effectively turns around the mentor debt, and thus completes his apprenticeship. And if it's due to Phoenix's mistake, Apollo is correcting the blunder, showing humility for the 'great' Phoenix Wright and proving his worth as a Wright's protege.
No thanks. Phoenix completed his 'apprenticeship' to Mia by finishing her life's work for her due to his own competence as a lawyer. In that scenario, Apollo would complete his apprenticeship due to Phoenix's incompetence.
I'm not following you.
Phoenix doesn't have to be incompetant for this to happen. He could have orchestrated and planned for every detail and set up a number of contingencies to mitigate the gamble, and there STILL can be some risk of it going horribly wrong. It's not incompetance if you have all the necessary skills, but end up getting the short end of the variable or have a completely unexpected factor coming in. If it was something Phoenix had no chance of suspecting, then it's not so much his error as it is an unforseeable factor.
In the end, whether by error or chance, it would still be Apollo's skill as a lawyer that would bring a positive resolution. If anything, it would be more of his skill because Phoenix would be utterly unable to help him (unlike Mia, who despite confirmation on her death still managed to come back in a little girl's body). Apollo would have to handle whatever labyrinthine machinations this leads too and hack his way to the truth all on his own. It's still Apollo's conpetence; any incompetence on Phoenix's part is either non-existant or irrelevant to Apollo's achievment.
Quote:
Bossmuff wrote:
The closest I see would be his 'fatal' plan really skirting the lines of 'justified'. He might even realize it at the end, or be forced to realize it by Apollo/Trucy/the Prosecutor. That, I think, would be the best way to do it, if you do it at all. Apollo could effectively 'pull him back' from falling off the path of truth, and remind Phoenix of what he could end up becoming. That would probably be the closest they could do without making him into a bastard.
Why is there any need to send poor Phoenix into a deeper spiral of character flaws? They already largely ruined his life and much of what he worked for in the previous trilogy just so they could have Apollo star but still fulfill the requirement of having Phoenix as a major character in the game. I think Hobo Phoenix's personality is still awesome but some people don't like him, and they'd like him even less if the next game went down that direction. Unless of course the writers plan to 'kill' him off in the worst way possible - by absolving the attachment we formed to him during the initial trilogy by warping his character beyond recognition.
As I said, it doesn't have to be drastic. Just a plan in order to pursue justice and the truth that skirts the edge of right and wrong a little more closely than before. I, too, like Hobo-Phoenix's personality, but I don't really see it as that much of a stretch if he were to go a little TOO far in pursuit of justice, or, more likely, helping someone. He certainly has the baggage now, given the ruined life and work mentioned, and he could come very close to crossing that border.
Spoiler: 4-1
I personally think it might be something to explore (that it is POSSIBLE that he could go down Gant's path, or come very close to it with the way he goes about things). He doesn't have to succumb to it, but it presents a debate about what one should do for the pursuit of justice.
The only way they'd 'kill' his character by it is if they made him into a complete sociopath right away, like Gant was. Just him considering committing an act similar to his (although probably a lot less; I would hate to see the situation that would prompt Phoenix to kill someone) would be enough to raise the question.
Like I said, it depends on how people want to portray Phoenix: as an overly good guy who is willing to bend the rules for the sake of justice, or a vigilante who is willing to break law and ethics to satisfy his own view of justice. Or something in between that, for that matter; there's a lot of possibility with how Phoenix could go.
And I would like to clarify; I would not see Phoenix killing anyone to implicate a killer unless someone else was in danger, and he had already tried EVERYTHING ELSE without success. It's not something that will happen drastically, if it happens at all, but it could be a possibility.
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Spoiler:
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Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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Superninfreak wrote:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Just as a point, even if Phoenix were to become a neo-Gant, he'd be a bit different than the real Gant. He probably wouldn't murder people, for example, but be more likely to resort to blackmail than forgery. Also, his forgeries would be more indirect, I would think.
This is, of course, assuming that he even gets to this point. It would have to be gradual and would probably end up being noticed by Apollo or Trucy (both are VERY perceptive).
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Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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Spoiler: 4-1
Besides, that is a lot of character development for Phoenix which is going to take away from the rest of the new cast and that would really upset me. Phoenix is developed. It's time for him to take a step back and act only as mentor.
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Spoiler: 4-4
En bref...I can see the potential of what you're suggesting, but I just don't think it's necessary.
Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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Phoenix is found dead in the Fey manor. Only Pearls and Maya live there, and the witnesses who clearly witnessed the crime saw someone who looked a lot like Mia Fey. With no other way to prove who it was, both are put on trial and the case can't end (within the three days that is) until one is proven guilty. An older Edgeworth would be the prosecutor, and would be even better than he was in JFA.
However here's the twist:
Spoiler:
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Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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Bossmuff wrote:
Spoiler:
Just as a point, even if Phoenix were to become a neo-Gant, he'd be a bit different than the real Gant. He probably wouldn't murder people, for example, but be more likely to resort to blackmail than forgery. Also, his forgeries would be more indirect, I would think.
This is, of course, assuming that he even gets to this point. It would have to be gradual and would probably end up being noticed by Apollo or Trucy (both are VERY perceptive).
Spoiler:
Jesus is Lord.
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Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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Mia_Fey wrote:
I still think that it would be too far a stretch for Phoenix character and given how badly many fans reacted to AJ Phoenix, I can't see Capcom risking screwing with his character any more. As for me, this whole Phoenix turning into Gant thing would truly piss me off enough that I would probably stop playing the games (similar to my reaction if they killed him). Like I said before, there is a difference between tweaking a character and breaking a character.
Spoiler: 4-1
It probably says more about me than anything. I probably have darker tastes than PW is geared towards, and tend to favour ambiguity and skewed morality (hence why I love Damon Gant so much).
I agree, though, that it is a very drastic change, which is why I postulated that the most they'd do is have him do something that potentially could start him down the path. Even then, I agree that it would take a very specific set of circumstances to do so, and would probably take something psychotically drastic to do.
Just having the apparant death is probably enough. I still stand by that particular aspect as a good possibility, which I think is more likely and could be done without the falling Phoenix or taking away from Apollo too much.
Quote:
Besides, that is a lot of character development for Phoenix which is going to take away from the rest of the new cast and that would really upset me. Phoenix is developed. It's time for him to take a step back and act only as mentor.
It wouldn't even need to develop him that much. Especially if it was something to do with Apollo.
I think that would work, actually; Phoenix tries to intervene in a conspiracy in order to protect Apollo or Trucy, or something to do with either of their family backgrounds. He ends up with some things going south, and gets shot. The investigation could end up leading into his past inadvertantly, and add another layer to it.
To be honest, I still don't really see how Phoenix being the victim in a case would count as 'development' of him. He's not going to be doing much other than being missing and thought dead, and having done a few things. If we tie it in to Apollo's story, not only does it influence Apollo more, but said Mr. Justice now has to pick up the conspiracy centered around him.
The only problem with this is that it makes it a bit cluttered. Truth be told, I'd rather see Apollo's story only partially revealed, and then become the main focus of a third game. If the Nightmare case were to happen, it would allow Apollo to prove his independent worth, and would make him more suited to follow his backstory in the next game.
larie wrote:
En bref...I can see the potential of what you're suggesting, but I just don't think it's necessary.
Doesn't bother me. I think it would be a good way to get Apollo out of Phoenix's shadow, and to make him a great lawyer in his own right.
I do agree that seeing the mentor/student relationship develop would be necessary, Phoenix-'death' or not. Phoenix has to develop in some way - characters just don't exist in stasis if they're major and Capcom's probably not going to push him aside easily - but it doesn't have to be the main focus and can be secondary to Apollo.
I'm not sure how 'huge' Apollo's backstory is. They have a lot of potential, but who knows how far they're going to take it. They could even stop with what they have now, if they wanted, since the major mysteries can quickly be resolved without a huge story being behind them.
Spoiler: AJ ending
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Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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Bossmuff wrote:
I think that would work, actually; Phoenix tries to intervene in a conspiracy in order to protect Apollo or Trucy, or something to do with either of their family backgrounds. He ends up with some things going south, and gets shot. The investigation could end up leading into his past inadvertantly, and add another layer to it.
To be honest, I still don't really see how Phoenix being the victim in a case would count as 'development' of him. He's not going to be doing much other than being missing and thought dead, and having done a few things. If we tie it in to Apollo's story, not only does it influence Apollo more, but said Mr. Justice now has to pick up the conspiracy centered around him.
The only problem with this is that it makes it a bit cluttered. Truth be told, I'd rather see Apollo's story only partially revealed, and then become the main focus of a third game. If the Nightmare case were to happen, it would allow Apollo to prove his independent worth, and would make him more suited to follow his backstory in the next game.
To be honest, I still don't really see how Phoenix being the victim in a case would count as 'development' of him. He's not going to be doing much other than being missing and thought dead, and having done a few things. If we tie it in to Apollo's story, not only does it influence Apollo more, but said Mr. Justice now has to pick up the conspiracy centered around him.
The only problem with this is that it makes it a bit cluttered. Truth be told, I'd rather see Apollo's story only partially revealed, and then become the main focus of a third game. If the Nightmare case were to happen, it would allow Apollo to prove his independent worth, and would make him more suited to follow his backstory in the next game.
This I could actually see working (Phoenix lives through it though). It's mostly the idea of Phoenix becoming crooked (and his becoming crooked would require a lot of development which would end up pulling attention away from Apollo) or actually dying that bothers me so much. I could definitely see Phoenix finding out something potentially dangerous about Apollo and Trucy's family which causes him to go check things out to make sure their safe. He gets shot or disappears and Apollo has to work out what happening, which puts us through all the emotional stuff with Phoenix being injured or missing while still telling us about Apollo's past. Perhaps it turns out the villain is even Apollo's biological father, so it comes down to a clash between Apollo and his father in an attempt to save his mentor (and sort of father figure). That would be a fascinating emotional set-up for the final trial in the game. This would be particularly dramatic if they really developed the mentor and student relationship. In the end, Phoenix survives and all is good. Then we just need a plot for the sixth game (oh please!). I think that kind of scenario could, in fact, be worked out without pulling attention from Apollo as the story line would focus on his emotional development and his past.
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Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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Bossmuff wrote:
I'm not following you.
Phoenix doesn't have to be incompetant for this to happen
Phoenix doesn't have to be incompetant for this to happen
The part about where 'Apollo is saving Phoenix from Phoenix's mistake.' Phoenix wasn't saving Mia from Mia's mistake.
Bossmuff wrote:
As I said, it doesn't have to be drastic. Just a plan in order to pursue justice and the truth that skirts the edge of right and wrong a little more closely than before. I, too, like Hobo-Phoenix's personality, but I don't really see it as that much of a stretch if he were to go a little TOO far in pursuit of justice, or, more likely, helping someone. He certainly has the baggage now, given the ruined life and work mentioned, and he could come very close to crossing that border.
I personally think it might be something to explore (that it is POSSIBLE that he could go down Gant's path, or come very close to it with the way he goes about things). He doesn't have to succumb to it, but it presents a debate about what one should do for the pursuit of justice.
The only way they'd 'kill' his character by it is if they made him into a complete sociopath right away, like Gant was. Just him considering committing an act similar to his (although probably a lot less; I would hate to see the situation that would prompt Phoenix to kill someone) would be enough to raise the question.
Spoiler: 4-1
I personally think it might be something to explore (that it is POSSIBLE that he could go down Gant's path, or come very close to it with the way he goes about things). He doesn't have to succumb to it, but it presents a debate about what one should do for the pursuit of justice.
The only way they'd 'kill' his character by it is if they made him into a complete sociopath right away, like Gant was. Just him considering committing an act similar to his (although probably a lot less; I would hate to see the situation that would prompt Phoenix to kill someone) would be enough to raise the question.
Much as I love GS4 Phoenix, lots of people hated his new character and already think they 'ruined' Phoenix. The number of people thinking this would just increase the more they go down this path.
Spoiler: 4-1
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Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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icer wrote:
The part about where 'Apollo is saving Phoenix from Phoenix's mistake.' Phoenix wasn't saving Mia from Mia's mistake.
I don't really think it has to be the same way as it was for Phoenix, nor does Phoenix making a mistake make him incompetant or detracts from Apollo's ability and achievment. Making Phoenix make a huge, boneheaded plan would be silly, but I don't think it has to be this way.
Phoenix's 'mistake' could be nothing more than a calculated risk gone wrong. He was forced to take a gamble in order to do what he felt was right (possibly to protect his family), and he got in trouble for it. He could even succeed at it and still end up getting shot.
It could even be a minor oversight or a factor he was unable to anticipate (someone else becoming involved that he didn't know about, for example). He could also have someone who's equally skilled get the better of him, perhaps on luck or due to circumstance (this doesn't make him incompetant, because bad luck is not ineptitude). He's not omniscient and omnipotent, and even though highly skilled and intelligent, he can meet those equal to him.
He could even know all the risks going in, and know that he was going to suffer something in order to protect his family. I'm less keen on this, simply because it makes Phoenix look TOO competant. I'd rather not have the 'all as planned' part of this; it would be more effective if it was something that got out of hand. Perhaps if he tried to mitigate the effects and was unable to in time, maybe, but that would require that part of his plan falter in some way.
As for Apollo, I see little problem with him proving his worth by bailing out Phoenix. It doesn't make him any less of a proficient lawyer for it and doesn't reflect any worse on Phoenix than Mia's did on her. Besides, he would actually be completing Phoenix's work on that scenario, by uncovering the truth that led to the event.
Spoiler: AJ End
Quote:
Much as I love GS4 Phoenix, lots of people hated his new character and already think they 'ruined' Phoenix. The number of people thinking this would just increase the more they go down this path.
Spoiler: 4-1
Spoiler: 4-1, 1-5
As for people hating it, that's their business. I personally loved what they did with him, and think they could choose to take him further down that path, if they wanted. I also would not mind if they kept him on his currently-cryptic level, though, because it's a good mentor archetype and would work best in 'teaching' Apollo.
The only thing that would bother me was if they 'cleaned him up', so to speak, making him more like his original self. He was cool when he started, but he's older and his current state and development makes sense given his history.
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Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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Bossmuff wrote:
Spoiler: 4-1, 1-5
Spoiler: 1-5, 4-1
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Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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Spoiler:
Jesus is Lord.
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Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
Here's how I see it:
Phoenix is found dead in the Fey manor. Only Pearls and Maya live there, and the witnesses who clearly witnessed the crime saw someone who looked a lot like Mia Fey. With no other way to prove who it was, both are put on trial and the case can't end (within the three days that is) until one is proven guilty. An older Edgeworth would be the prosecutor, and would be even better than he was in JFA.
However here's the twist:
Phoenix is found dead in the Fey manor. Only Pearls and Maya live there, and the witnesses who clearly witnessed the crime saw someone who looked a lot like Mia Fey. With no other way to prove who it was, both are put on trial and the case can't end (within the three days that is) until one is proven guilty. An older Edgeworth would be the prosecutor, and would be even better than he was in JFA.
However here's the twist:
Spoiler:
You people sure know how to put someone down...not responding and all...
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Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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Marshmello wrote:
There's a lot of differences between Mia and Nick, though. The player doesn't get very attached to Mia in the first case, and in any case, SHE COMES BACK. Mia was there, even after she was murdered. If Nick died, he'd be dead. Plus, having Apollo's mentor die would make AJ seem like even more of a rip-off of the first three games.
But I'm personally of the opinion that Phoenix Wright is immortal. He's escaped death/serious injury several times, if his name wasn't symbolic enough. Nick's a constant. He has a very immortal quality, and to throw him off a bridge after it all would ruin the series, even if he did somehow return as a ghost.
Then again, Phoenix Wright: Ace Zombie would kick all manner of ass.
But I'm personally of the opinion that Phoenix Wright is immortal. He's escaped death/serious injury several times, if his name wasn't symbolic enough. Nick's a constant. He has a very immortal quality, and to throw him off a bridge after it all would ruin the series, even if he did somehow return as a ghost.
Then again, Phoenix Wright: Ace Zombie would kick all manner of ass.
I agree. It would be very hard to kill phoenix. i mean, he's been
Spoiler:
Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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Aquay wrote:
I agree. It would be very hard to kill phoenix. i mean, he's been. and if the DO kill phoenix, im going to die and come back to haunt/sue Capcom. SO THEY BETTER NOT KILL MEH FEENIE!!!!!!!!!:chinami:
Spoiler:
Spoiler: all games
Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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Bossmuff wrote:
Finally, what if Phoenix's own death was ambiguous? Such as if the murder was witnessed, but the body was never found (fallen into a river, for example, leaving blood on the bridge?)
Wait wait wait.. Phoenix is alive well after this game in the timeline, how is that possible? He can't die in this game, unless you're somehow suggesting that the Phoenix in GS4 wasn't the real one but a fake one.. for seven years. I think that's too big of a twist for even Capcom to make..
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Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
Here's how I see it:
Phoenix is found dead in the Fey manor. Only Pearls and Maya live there, and the witnesses who clearly witnessed the crime saw someone who looked a lot like Mia Fey. With no other way to prove who it was, both are put on trial and the case can't end (within the three days that is) until one is proven guilty. An older Edgeworth would be the prosecutor, and would be even better than he was in JFA.
However here's the twist:
Phoenix is found dead in the Fey manor. Only Pearls and Maya live there, and the witnesses who clearly witnessed the crime saw someone who looked a lot like Mia Fey. With no other way to prove who it was, both are put on trial and the case can't end (within the three days that is) until one is proven guilty. An older Edgeworth would be the prosecutor, and would be even better than he was in JFA.
However here's the twist:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
kill 
, but she didn't actually kill him, herself). She'd probably get a life sentence for her "assistance", but I'd doubt she'd get executed.
*
)
Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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NinjaMonkey wrote:
Spoiler:
Spoiler: 3-5
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Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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NinjaMonkey wrote:
Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
Here's how I see it:
Phoenix is found dead in the Fey manor. Only Pearls and Maya live there, and the witnesses who clearly witnessed the crime saw someone who looked a lot like Mia Fey. With no other way to prove who it was, both are put on trial and the case can't end (within the three days that is) until one is proven guilty. An older Edgeworth would be the prosecutor, and would be even better than he was in JFA.
However here's the twist:
Phoenix is found dead in the Fey manor. Only Pearls and Maya live there, and the witnesses who clearly witnessed the crime saw someone who looked a lot like Mia Fey. With no other way to prove who it was, both are put on trial and the case can't end (within the three days that is) until one is proven guilty. An older Edgeworth would be the prosecutor, and would be even better than he was in JFA.
However here's the twist:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
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Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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Superninfreak wrote:
Spoiler: 3-5
She's, like, only 7/8 years old, so I doubt she would have been prosecuted!
Last edited by NinjaMonkey on Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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That is all.
Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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Marshmello wrote:
Yikes...
I really hope that AA5 isn't the last game though. But if what you heard is true, then that'll probably be the case
I really hope that AA5 isn't the last game though. But if what you heard is true, then that'll probably be the case
I swear, if GS5 is the last AA game, I will fly over to Japan and riot outside Capcom's HQ.
Seriously, there must be GS6, right?! They had 3 games for Phoenix, so it's only fair that Apollo gets 3 games.
And even when the GS6, they might do this all again, if the sales are good. Yes, i'm saying what you think i'm saying.
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Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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(unless they have him re-take the bar exam, that is).
Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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"Phoenix Wright chooses death."
Bump - bump - bump - bump - bump - bump - bump
Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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is absent from them for a while, or...forever.
Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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Wooster wrote:
I have only one thing to say on this topic.
"Phoenix Wright chooses death."
"Phoenix Wright chooses death."
Then in the next game, we hear his theme song.
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Re: Turnabout Nightmare: Thoughts on Potential GS5 Final Case
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Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
Wooster wrote:
I have only one thing to say on this topic.
"Phoenix Wright chooses death."
"Phoenix Wright chooses death."
Then in the next game, we hear his theme song.
Phoenix has a theme song?
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