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Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)Topic%20Title

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I thought Phoenix doing the bar exams again was a joke?
Course, from what I've heard it'd be hard to tell the difference with him.
But aside from my nitpicks, that seems like it'll be what GS5 will be like.
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I don't think Phoenix will ever actually start practicing law again, but I wouldn't be surprised if he showed up in a suit at the end of GS5, or took over as your bench partner if Minuki were in trouble.

I'd rather have Minuki be a victim (not dead, in a coma or something :P) than a defendant. That's been done to death. Though anything as long as Yuumi doesn't die...!! I want Odoroki to know his mommy ;_;

(...though I also have this secret, insane hope that Kirihito stays as part of the cast as Odoroki's "Hannibal Lecter" jail buddy XD. HELLO, MY BOY. WOULD YOU LIKE A NICE CHIANTI!? SLSLSLSLSLSLSLSLS)
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Kitihito belongs in the same place as Von Karma IMO.
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Did Gumshoe really quit the force?
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Croik wrote:
I don't think Phoenix will ever actually start practicing law again, but I wouldn't be surprised if he showed up in a suit at the end of GS5...


*Whistles NonChalantly*

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Man, Hobohodo has a huge head.
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mario66 wrote:
Man, Hobohodo has a huge head.

Seconded.
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mario66 wrote:
Man, Hobohodo has a huge head.


Almost as big as his finger.
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Igiari

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...Perhaps Takumi and his team wanted to exclude old characters as much as possible because, frankly enough...

...it's not Odoroki's business.

Phoenix knows about what happened and probably stays in touch with everyone. Hell, maybe something happened involving everyone again. But it wasn't Odoroki's business, neither the jury's. So, there's no need to put them in, not even in the flashbacks.

I mean, we have to remember we play as Odoroki. We're not a 3rd person, and the game doesn't treat us as such. So, if Odoroki is not meant to know something, we aren't as well.

Now, if we still played as Phoenix outside of the Mason system, we'd have access to his deeper thoughts, and then we'd see all sorts of references.
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Lets just wait for a confirmation of GS5 before we guess what it will be about or who we will be playing.
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I think that would be a horrible thing to do, to go back to Phoenix. Make another Phoenix game if you must, but keep it outside of the main series. ("Phoenix Wright: The Lost Cases," anyone?) I want to hear more about Odoroki, Minuki, and the gang instead. Sure, Phoenix will have to be in there too, seeing as how he's Minuki's legal guardian, but the focus should remain on the new characters.

This is not to say that I mind a few references to the old characters, or even cameos, as long as it isn't the focus of the series. I do want to find out what happened to Maya, Edgeworth, Larry, Gumshoe, Lana, Godot, Franziska, etc.
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The Goddamned Batman wrote:
Sure, Phoenix will have to be in there too, seeing as how he's Minuki's legal guardian, but the focus should remain on the new characters.

If the GS team really wanted to pull Phoenix out of the game completely they could have Lamiroir/Yuumi come and take back Odoroki and Minuki for the rest of Odoroki's series (and because she travels, Odoroki could go with her too and work on cases in other places). Of course, she's not a lawyer, so Odoroki would have to find another sensei or stay with Phoenix. I do like the idea of Phoenix continuing on in a "branch" separate from Odoroki, though.
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Are we supposed to agree with the main villain at the end?

I mean, in this case it was used to prove Makoto innocent, which I get--especially with the real world system and "reasonable doubt." But the whole 4-3 "Omg we can't convict daian without eviiidennnceee" is... sorta scary and borderline sociopathic, IMO. The law and evidence SHOULD be what's important.

Especially when you consider that hte Mason System is just Phoenix--a man who was DISBARRED for using fake evidence--tampering with video footage and showing it to jurors, going "trust me lol this is how it happened, I'm telling the truth THIS time."

It's really disturbing, actually.
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I really don't get why they'd let Phoenix design a whole new law system... I mean, even ignoring the point that he was disbarred, what qualifications has he got? Oh, he was a lawyer once. Using that logic you could have almost anyone making it.
And I totally agree with you CFTF, they go from one extreme in Case 3 to the other in Case 4.
I do think the Juror system was a good idea, but I get the impression it was only made to fit the Mason system in, and don't think it should be brought back. It seems a bit anti-climatic to just vote Guilty or Not Guilty, rather than presenting the final piece of evidence with Objection~*enter year in here* playing in the background, making you feel like T3H UBA LAWYER!. And who would vote Guilty except to see what happens if you do?
Anyway, it was good idea, but I think the old way's better.
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Quote:
The law and evidence SHOULD be what's important.

But thats how juries work in every country you have. Yes, they do need evidence, but not having juries lets people like Daine go free, because you don't have definitive proof. They didn't want that, thats why they decided to have a jury system, so if they think that the person did do it, they can be found guilty.
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Impulse wrote:
I really don't get why they'd let Phoenix design a whole new law system... I mean, even ignoring the point that he was disbarred, what qualifications has he got? Oh, he was a lawyer once. Using that logic you could have almost anyone making it.

Yeah, I mean, everyone was a lawyer at some point in their life, weren't they?
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Guess_Who wrote:
Impulse wrote:
I really don't get why they'd let Phoenix design a whole new law system... I mean, even ignoring the point that he was disbarred, what qualifications has he got? Oh, he was a lawyer once. Using that logic you could have almost anyone making it.

Yeah, I mean, everyone was a lawyer at some point in their life, weren't they?

Errr... Yes. Yes they were. Oops
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I understand what Takumi and Co were going for, but I think they screwed it up. If they wanted to show that the law is broken, then they should have shown it.

Odoroki won every trial. Justice was served. Yeah, it was hard, but that's gameplay. Using Odoroki as a mouthpiece to yell "ZOMG OUR LEGAL SYSTEM PROTECTS CRIMINALS" is ridiculous if all it takes is dragging Maki to the stand to put Daian away. (Hey, Hobo. If you want to fix the legal system, how about starting with the fact that Maki is a fourteen year old boy up for capital punishment and who still goes to prison at the end!)

Personally, what I think they should have done is to have you lose the first case. Yeah, that's right, Phoenix is innocent and goes to jail, awaiting capital punishment. That shows the legal system is fucked. Then 4-4 you defeat Kirihito and clear Phoenix's name with the help of the jury system--showing that this new system will help misscarriages of justice from happening.
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musouka wrote:
Personally, what I think they should have done is to have you lose the first case. Yeah, that's right, Phoenix is innocent and goes to jail, awaiting capital punishment. That shows the legal system is fucked. Then 4-4 you defeat Kirihito and clear Phoenix's name with the help of the jury system--showing that this new system will help misscarriages of justice from happening.

Yes- that would a be great idea. Truly getting their message acroos, and it would make for a good storyline as well. I doubt that they would do it though...
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musouka wrote:
Personally, what I think they should have done is to have you lose the first case. Yeah, that's right, Phoenix is innocent and goes to jail, awaiting capital punishment. That shows the legal system is fucked. Then 4-4 you defeat Kirihito and clear Phoenix's name with the help of the jury system--showing that this new system will help misscarriages of justice from happening.


No.

Spoiler:
The only reason they caught Kirihito was because he was available - in prison - to testify. Otherwise, he would have ran away, maybe with the excuse of going to another country to defend, and leaving you as the protegé of Public Enemy No. 1.

Besides, I thought the whole point of the Mason System was that it was an investigation made by Phoenix with the aid of the police, or at least the camera button, which happens to be extremely similar to one Ema wore (and now doesn't) hints it.

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El Huesudo II wrote:
Spoiler:
The only reason they caught Kirihito was because he was available - in prison - to testify. Otherwise, he would have ran away, maybe with the excuse of going to another country to defend, and leaving you as the protegé of Public Enemy No. 1.

Besides, I thought the whole point of the Mason System was that it was an investigation made by Phoenix with the aid of the police, or at least the camera button, which happens to be extremely similar to one Ema wore (and now doesn't) hints it.



No. I am not talking about trying to make that fit into the story, I am saying if--as the goal was to show that the current legal system is fucked up, which is pretty obvious it is--then that was a narrative option. You would have had to craft something different to make it work, obviously, but as a vehicle for "JURY IS GOOD" it would have made a billion times more sense than "OUR LEGAL SYSTEM SUCKS BUT SOMEHOW EVERYTHING ALWAYS TURNS OUT OKAY"
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Last edited by musouka on Mon May 14, 2007 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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It's a camera THROUGH WHICH HE CONTINUES TO FORGE EVIDENCE.

(At least, that's the only way one can really rationalize "presenting future evidence in the past." It's basically PHoenix tampering with the video and going "Well, this is what WOULD have happened... I think.")
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I think it's just a big TIME PARADOX.
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Did somebody say, "Time paradox"!
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I didn't necessarily feel that the inclusion of the jury system was to show that the law they were using up until that point was "wrong", or that it was some political statement about law in Japan or anything as serious as that. They knew that Japan was going to start including the Jury system. They decided to incorporate it. And they couldn't just throw it in without the assumption that it's a step forward, it's an improvement. You don't just change the way things are done otherwise.

So they created a situation where they *needed* a jury. Kirihito was good enough that Phoenix had no way of beating him with evidence alone, like all his previous trials. So he cheated, to show the Jury the evidence the law wouldn't have let him. As an audience we can only assume that Phoenix thought it a good enough trade: you break a few rules to get to the truth.

Phoenix did cheat. He forged evidence to get Kirihito caught. The game doesn't really try to excuse him for that - it was a "the ends justify the means" situation. Whether he'll continue down that path now that Kirihito is gone, or if Odoroki will adopt the same philosophy, or if either of them will be held accountable for it... those are questions we won't be able to answer until GS5.

Though personally, I hope they don't continue with the Jury System. I like being able to present the final evidence that ties everything together, rather than just watching the end of the proceedings.
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But...

he'd ALREADY beaten Kirihito. Kirihito is in jail, on death row, and going to be executed. You don't get much more beaten than that.

And just then, that's just the problem I have with the Jury system. Using it to free an innocent like Makoto--that's fine, and sometimes you DON'T have pure hard evidence. But using it offensively, to put someone on death row? Without evidence? ....in the PW-verse, where murder = death penalty, it gives me kinda squick.
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Croik wrote:
I didn't necessarily feel that the inclusion of the jury system was to show that the law they were using up until that point was "wrong", or that it was some political statement about law in Japan or anything as serious as that.


Eh, I have to disagree. There was a reason that last fourth of the Daian trial was about OMG PROOOOOF. I think it was supposed to make me frustrated that he was so untouchable.

Also, yes, Phoenix forged evidence to beat Kirihito, but you can't prove a negative. The game telling me it was impossible to have beaten him without forging evidence lacks power compared to SHOWING me he can't be beaten without forging evidence. But that's just my two cents on that particular issue.
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CantFaketheFunk wrote:
And just then, that's just the problem I have with the Jury system. Using it to free an innocent like Makoto--that's fine, and sometimes you DON'T have pure hard evidence. But using it offensively, to put someone on death row? Without evidence? ....in the PW-verse, where murder = death penalty, it gives me kinda squick.


I'm not sure how it works in the PW universe, but in Denmark, the Judge can overrule a guilty verdict from the jury if he finds that there is not sufficient enough evidence to dertermine guilt. Detective Gumshoe

I don't mind the Jury system, if it is incorporated right. Just tweak a few things here and there and have the Juddge declare the defendant not guilty... and have the JURY be the one that feels like you screwd up when you run out of 'health bar'. It doesn't need to be visible, really.
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musouka wrote:
Eh, I have to disagree. There was a reason that last fourth of the Daian trial was about OMG PROOOOOF. I think it was supposed to make me frustrated that he was so untouchable.

Also, yes, Phoenix forged evidence to beat Kirihito, but you can't prove a negative. The game telling me it was impossible to have beaten him without forging evidence lacks power compared to SHOWING me he can't be beaten without forging evidence. But that's just my two cents on that particular issue.


Well yeah, but that's because 4-3 was setting up for the Jury system, hence all Hobohodo's crptic comments of "in THIS SYSTEM it'll be pretty hard to beat him, lol!" But I didn't see it as trying to go back and say that the system has been broken until now, just that criminals are getting better and it's time to transition into something new.

And I think they did a pretty good job of showing that evidence alone couldn't defeat Kirihito, because...it didn't. Phoenix had to forge the Ace in the first case because it was the one bit of evidence that he needed to win, and the one piece he couldn't get - he said as much at the end of the case. And in 4-4, Odoroki presents all his evidence and can't win. The break in the case was when they dogged Kirihito enough to start acting like a dick, and then reminded him that the Jury was watching him act like a murderer. Up until that point, Odoroki, Kyouya, the Judge, even Kirihito himself repeated several times: "There's no conclusive proof." It wasn't until Kyouya pointed out that they didn't need proof that they were able to win.

And Funk - proving a defendant innocent by implicating someone else is the way Phoenix won every case of his career. You can't free someone in PW world without placing the blame elsewhere. And it's not like Phoenix hasn't "tricked" people into confessing before, despite a lack of hard evidence.

If Phoenix was manipulating the jury in a case he wasn't already 100% sure of the truth in, then yes, that would be an abuse of power. And maybe it still is in 4-4 - he did violate Kirihito's rights by snooping around his cell, taking pictures. But the whole point was that they couldn't save Makoto's life without it.
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Croik wrote:
Well yeah, but that's because 4-3 was setting up for the Jury system, hence all Hobohodo's crptic comments of "in THIS SYSTEM it'll be pretty hard to beat him, lol!" But I didn't see it as trying to go back and say that the system has been broken until now, just that criminals are getting better and it's time to transition into something new.


But...it's the same system. And, it still works. They talk about how Daian is untouchable, yet all it takes is slapping Maki up there and down he goes. The game chattering at me about how hard it is to win cases doesn't mean a thing to me if I still always pull out a win in the end. It's always been tough for defense attorneys. What else is new?

Croik wrote:
And I think they did a pretty good job of showing that evidence alone couldn't defeat Kirihito, because...it didn't. Phoenix had to forge the Ace in the first case because it was the one bit of evidence that he needed to win, and the one piece he couldn't get - he said as much at the end of the case.


That's my issue. The game tells me there was No! Other! Way! but I just don't see it unless I feel like the options were explored and didn't work. I felt like the game yanked me by the hand and lead me down a single path, and on that path there was only ONE WAY to beat him, if that makes any sense. To me, Kirihito wasn't unbeatable because of one piece of evidence, he was unbeatable because the plot called for it in a rather clunky way.

EDIT: And I do realize the games are linear. I just feel like, if you tell me that something is the only way, I should feel like everything was done to show it was the only way, which I'm not sure is possible in the GS set-up. (For example, in the other games, you use one method to get a verdict, but the game doesn't come right out and say it would have been utterly impossible unless you did it this way lol. The games have too many plot holes for that to fly. 3-3 is a good example of a time you would have "had" to forge evidence, but you managed to wiggle through that one--in a rather hilarious fashion) Thus my assertation that the serious crisis facing the current legal system would have been better shown through a loss. (Which is problematic in itself, since it starts the game off really dark and involves a measure of risk that I doubt Capcom was willing to take)
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musouka wrote:
But...it's the same system. And, it still works. They talk about how Daian is untouchable, yet all it takes is slapping Maki up there and down he goes. The game chattering at me about how hard it is to win cases doesn't mean a thing to me if I still always pull out a win in the end. It's always been tough for defense attorneys. What else is new?


But that's why I think your assertion that the game was trying to say "old way = bad" is too severe. It wasn't "bad". It was hard, and in the case of Kirihito, it wasn't enough. Kirihito was unbeatable because, as an attorney himself, he knew which pieces of evidence could ruin him, and he took steps to keep them out of the proceedings. If he was a little less sharp, the Ace and the Yellow Letter would have been enough, and if this had been a GS game done in the style of the first three, he simply would have been clumsy enough to leave them behind.

Like, in 1-4, if Karma had simply thought to collect the DL-6 evidence before carrying out his plan, Maya would have never grabbed the bullet that ultimately proved him guilty. Phoenix wouldn't have been able to beat him if not for that. There are several cases where, if not for one single piece of evidence, the killer would have walked. If not for Zenitora being an adorable bonehead Phoenix might have lost that case, too.

4-4 just took it a step further. Not only was Kirihito sharp enough to know which evidence he had to conceal, he wasn't dumb enough to fall for the same trap Zenitora did. I thought they made that clear in 4-1 when he knew better than to explain how he knew Phoenix's Ace was forged.

And even if you won 4-3, Phoenix was right - Odoroki had to use unusual means. It wasn't a piece of conclusive evidence, it was the confession of his own client. That's already a step outside the norm for a PW case.

Quote:
Thus my assertation that the serious crisis facing the current legal system would have been better shown through a loss.


But that's just it - I don't think it was a crisis within the system. The problem with the system wasn't that it couldn't catch criminals, but that it couldn't get *Kirihito*. Phoenix wanted to catch him, specifically. So he helped instigate a change that would *let* him get Kirihito. Is it obesessive and a little crazy to want to change the entire foundation of their judicial system, just to get one person? (Or, conversely, to save one person?). Sure it is. But I think that's what the game wants you to believe is really going on. Kirihito said it himself, at the end: "Was it all just for this!?"

Yes, it was. Phoenix spent 7 years chasing Kirihito and finally found the one way to beat him (with help). The only major complaint I have to that is that they didn't make Kirihito seem quite worth the trouble (he really should have killed more people, or in a more gruesome manner, or for a better reason, if they wanted us to believe he was "the devil" that Phoenix would risk everything to take down). If the Flashback sequence was more conventional, or we saw more of Phoenix and Kirihito's interaction, it would have been more believable.

But I still like how the Jury system was implimented in 4-4, even if I would prefer it doesn't get used the same way (or at all) in GS5.
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I could see the Jury system working out in later games. Just give each juror a bar(or more symbolically, a scale) measuring how far they're leaning towards guilty or innocent. Every time you pull a smart move your score with the jurors goes up a certain amount that varies per juror, and every time the prosecution does something smart it goes down. Likewise, any time you screw up, it goes down. And during the trial you can look over at them to see what they're thinking.

This also opens the door to slightly less linear tangents in the trial. If all you need to win is a majority vote, you can pick and choose which topics to address in the trial. Maybe Juror B is hung up on the timeline of the murder. At some point in the trial Odoroki can think to himself "Do I want to add anything on any of these subjects? Timeline, Fingerprints, Defendant's Relationship with Victim, Address Nothing." If you don't address anything you can still win the trial with your barely above majority vote that comes from the mandatory sections of the trial. If you address one and get it right you win points with the jury, which allows you to screw up an extra time during the mandatory dialogue. But if you mess up in these optional tangents you're penalized, so there's incentive to avoid them unless you're confident you can pull them off.

In the end, that succeeds in giving each case more replay value. Things will progress slightly differently depending what you choose to address. Plus, this gives you the added challenge of trying to get a unanimous vote in the trial.
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Here is an alternate way they could have finished case 4

Spoiler:
Phoenix could come down and give Odoroki the Magatama, the black locks can only be broken by the power of his braclet and the Magatama. After breaking down his black locks Kirihito either
A-reveals he has the letter with him, just incase the police searched his cell.
or
B-flat out admits he is the villian


Quote:
Like, in 1-4, if Karma had simply thought to collect the DL-6 evidence before carrying out his plan, Maya would have never grabbed the bullet that ultimately proved him guilty. Phoenix wouldn't have been able to beat him if not for that. There are several cases where, if not for one single piece of evidence, the killer would have walked. If not for Zenitora being an adorable bonehead Phoenix might have lost that case, too.


Von Karma believed he was going to find Edgeworth guilty day one easily (which he almost did). There were many times during 1-4 Von Karma said this case is over (such as day two when Larry saves the day)and not to continue it. It was not until the rookie Wright began to get close to the truth did he realize he needed to ditch the evidence that Wright could use against him. Also we never had a problem with Maya grabbing the bullet out of his hand or w/e it was until now.
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)Topic%20Title
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俺の黄金の魔女

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Croik wrote:
But that's why I think your assertion that the game was trying to say "old way = bad" is too severe.


Well, I'm being a little bit overly-dramatic in my attempts to make my point. Really, though, I do think there was a strong theme running through most of the game--4-2 probably being the exception--that "the law doesn't work, OH NOES". Whether it's Phoenix in 4-1 talking about how law has entered the dark ages or Odoroki lamenting that the system protects criminals. That's very heavy handed writing to me. (Then again, this is the same person that busted a gut when they started talking about the jury system in the beginning of 4-4 and it sounded like something you would hear off of one of those old fashioned educational tapes, so...don't mind me.)

I had the rest of a reply typed up, but, you know, I think I'm just going to have to agree to disagree. I do understand where you're coming from, but it really all hinges on the believablity of Kirihito as some satanically evil mastermind. To me, he made enough ridiculous mistakes in 4-1 that I...just couldn't see it. I also think the fact that the ace had been replaced coupled with the lack of bloodstain anywhere else would have been convincing enough. From there you can continue on the path of the positioning, the cabinet, ect, ect.
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Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)Topic%20Title
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nuuuuu, stoooooop

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Well, that's why I wish Kirihito himself were a bit more impressive. His motive, coupled with the fact that he didn't just go find Makoto and stab her in the face, really bring him down as a villain. I really wish there was something darker hidden behind all those EVIL BLACK PSYCHO LOCKS!!!

In some cases, I think that ridiculousness adds to the story - I always thought the fact that Matt Engarde was willing to kill a man over his reputation as a *child's action show actor* was so out there, it made him seem even more crazy. But Kirihito killing for something equally as trivial didn't fit as well.

Which is too bad because I really liked him otherwise _-_
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Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)Topic%20Title

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I don't know, I think if I couldn't succeed in killing a LITTLE GIRL TWICE for seven years with a STAMP and NAIL POLISH(that he owns, BTW), I think I'd want that to be kept a secret, too. YES WITH TEH BL@CK PSCHYO LOCK!
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What is my liiiife?!?

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The simplist reason why Kirihito used the poison is because he didn't want to take any chances. He couldn't have stabbed her because she was never out of her fathers sight. He would have had to have killed BOTH of them, and then he would have been caught (Over abundance of evidence).

I think that Kirihito wasn't content with just getting Nick Disbarred, he wanted Nick to be convicted and killed, and of course to kill...
Spoiler: just in case
Zakku/Urafushi
. Because he KNEW that Urafushi would come back.
Re: Croik finished THE GAME!!!! (untagged spoilers inside)Topic%20Title
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I'm not entirely sure of that. If poison was his killing agent of choice he could have just outright killed Phoenix any time in those past 7 years they knew each other. Just give him some poisoned grape juice! Phoenix drinks so much of the stuff the police would never have been able to sort out which bottle came from where.

And especially in case 1, for a while it really did seem like Kirihito was trying to defend Phoenix, especially when he tried to throw the entirety of the blame on Masaka. He could have easily left more of the work to Odoroki and let him fail. Maybe Kirihito liked having Phoenix alive and under his thumb...?

Or else he was just too paranoid about getting caught. *shrug*
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What would the point be of killing HoboNick then though? I don't think there would be, because then he would never have gotten the chance to silence Urafushi. Everyone that ever suspected him would be dead, which would mean he would finally get off scot free.

I think he was paranoid, which was why he was SO angry at the end of 4-4. He had worked his ass off, making sure there was no way WHATSOEVER of him being caught, and then he finds out that all the jury have to do is THINK that he did it, which is something he didn't really plan for.

I think he's so paranoid, it's probably a sympton of a mental disease. It would partially explain his actions.
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