Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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He's too....damn....likeable.
I mean in my opinion a prosecutor should command a certain....aura in the courtroom. One of fear.
Karma did it with a snap of his fingers,
His daughter used physical violence with her whip.
Godot had his hot steaming mug of third degree burns on Phoenix's face.
Also Edgeworth's extremely serious nature just gave me chills.
But Klavier...I just can't take him seriously, he's too nice he gets an air guitar pose in court! I mean...there's prescence...but it's not threatening.
Upon meeting Klavier I thought he seemed to have the attitude of Edgeworth after his time away, enlightened determined to seek justice and truth above a win.
I'd rather have seen a little more development in Klavier or at least if I could have not liked him a little to make him seem more like an enemy than an ally.
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Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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That's one plus right?
Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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I'm gone for so long, and the colors got all psychedelic! Woohoo!
Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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Still the only thing that bugged me about him is the fact he put Phoenix down like a stupid punk.
He looks too kind and helps you out too much in court it's just soo.....frustrating he does half your job for you at times.
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Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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rock on!i haven't played the fourth case yet, so i don't know much about him in that one.
Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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4-3 made Klavier look like a fool. The proof? Look at the defendant.
Sure, I can understand the whole "Wanting to get the trial done fast" thing, but they could have accused someone reasonable.
Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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Avarice wrote:
Wha...
4-3 made Klavier look like a fool. The proof? Look at the defendant.
Sure, I can understand the whole "Wanting to get the trial done fast" thing, but they could have accused someone reasonable.
4-3 made Klavier look like a fool. The proof? Look at the defendant.
Sure, I can understand the whole "Wanting to get the trial done fast" thing, but they could have accused someone reasonable.
If that's the case, then it's Ema that's the fool. The police are the one to arrest and accuse someone, Klavier's job is just the use the evidence the police found to convict who the police are accusing. It's not up to him who they arrest.
Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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Rizuchan wrote:
Avarice wrote:
Wha...
4-3 made Klavier look like a fool. The proof? Look at the defendant.
Sure, I can understand the whole "Wanting to get the trial done fast" thing, but they could have accused someone reasonable.
4-3 made Klavier look like a fool. The proof? Look at the defendant.
Sure, I can understand the whole "Wanting to get the trial done fast" thing, but they could have accused someone reasonable.
If that's the case, then it's Ema that's the fool. The police are the one to arrest and accuse someone, Klavier's job is just the use the evidence the police found to convict who the police are accusing. It's not up to him who they arrest.
i concur. klavier was just doing his job as a prosecutor. compared to 4-3, klavier's attitude in 4-2 was pretty much "la-la-la. you're the guy who somehow put my brother in jail. we're on a trial now. la-la-la. i'm just gonna play air guitar and take a loss because i already know he's innocent."
in 4-3 he acted more like a real prosecutor. plus, we got to see a little bit more of his side of the story what with the whole rock band thing going on. it give him a little bit more depth as a character. okay, maybe still not very much depth at all, but certainly more than the "rok god fangirl fodder" image he had in 4-2.
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He's so... meh. I mean, yes, he has the best theme music and poses but.. not what I would have liked in a prosecutor. I suppose that it's a change from the usual super-aggressive ones but come on = =; He either does your job for you or he only sees the really obvious evidence (from what I remember).
If only he were.. not as happy. That would make me love him so much more.
Although I do admit to using is phrases a lot = =;
Not on purpose! I have simply played too much D;
Last edited by Jelly on Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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Rizuchan wrote:
Avarice wrote:
Wha...
4-3 made Klavier look like a fool. The proof? Look at the defendant.
Sure, I can understand the whole "Wanting to get the trial done fast" thing, but they could have accused someone reasonable.
4-3 made Klavier look like a fool. The proof? Look at the defendant.
Sure, I can understand the whole "Wanting to get the trial done fast" thing, but they could have accused someone reasonable.
If that's the case, then it's Ema that's the fool. The police are the one to arrest and accuse someone, Klavier's job is just the use the evidence the police found to convict who the police are accusing. It's not up to him who they arrest.
I guess, but it is just so obvious that the defendant couldn't have done it that even trying to prosecute him was just silly.
It has been a while since I played the case, but did Klavier even offer a decent theory on how
Spoiler:
Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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Although, in the
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ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOGANT
Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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A "villain" (used loosely in this sense) in a game can be imposing even without being physically intimidating. In fact, the "Incredibly brutal/trust no one" sort of villain has been done before so many times that it gets old. I found Klavier to be refreshing, and even though he is kind as you said, he is also firm and doesn't lose ground on something he believes to be true unless you prove him otherwise. In that sense, I found Klavier to be imposing, and that is fine enough as a "villain" for a game, which in turn means he is a fine prosecutor. At least for me, I can't speak for everyone.
Just my opinion. Moving right along.
Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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Herr Blondie wrote:
I'm not sure I follow your point Rizu what was wrong with the accused?
The fact that he's fine even though that gun could dislocate an adult's arm AND that after fireing it TWICE he supposedly dragged an adult body all the way up to where you find them.
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Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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Lets hope the GS5 prosecutor isn't some sort of hippie.
Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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Daramue wrote:
Does a prosecutor really have to "instill fear" in you?
A "villain" (used loosely in this sense) in a game can be imposing even without being physically intimidating. In fact, the "Incredibly brutal/trust no one" sort of villain has been done before so many times that it gets old. I found Klavier to be refreshing, and even though he is kind as you said, he is also firm and doesn't lose ground on something he believes to be true unless you prove him otherwise. In that sense, I found Klavier to be imposing, and that is fine enough as a "villain" for a game, which in turn means he is a fine prosecutor. At least for me, I can't speak for everyone.
Just my opinion. Moving right along.
A "villain" (used loosely in this sense) in a game can be imposing even without being physically intimidating. In fact, the "Incredibly brutal/trust no one" sort of villain has been done before so many times that it gets old. I found Klavier to be refreshing, and even though he is kind as you said, he is also firm and doesn't lose ground on something he believes to be true unless you prove him otherwise. In that sense, I found Klavier to be imposing, and that is fine enough as a "villain" for a game, which in turn means he is a fine prosecutor. At least for me, I can't speak for everyone.
Just my opinion. Moving right along.
Solid point
I guess but still I don't mean every prosecutor has to be a bad ass. Believe me Klavier was one of my favourite characters but....he just didn't feel like a good rival even. Godot wasn't physically intimidating god he was a rookie when he faced off against Phoenix for the first time but he still had a certain prescence to him.With Klavier I just can't seem to take him seriously I'm betting its because he maintains an aura of "cool" nearly permanently (seriously I'm pretty sure none of his "under pressure" sprites show up in the first trial with him) and I think a prosecutor has to make it look like he's actually working instead of coasting through it. Even in the cases it's Ema doing most of the work for him (though I hate Ema) she makes him look too lazy for my liking, I'd rather see him at least take his job a little more seriously.
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Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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Herr Blondie wrote:
Personally I didn't think so.
He's too....damn....likeable.
I mean in my opinion a prosecutor should command a certain....aura in the courtroom. One of fear.
Karma did it with a snap of his fingers,
His daughter used physical violence with her whip.
Godot had his hot steaming mug of third degree burns on Phoenix's face.
Also Edgeworth's extremely serious nature just gave me chills.
But Klavier...I just can't take him seriously, he's too nice he gets an air guitar pose in court! I mean...there's prescence...but it's not threatening.
Upon meeting Klavier I thought he seemed to have the attitude of Edgeworth after his time away, enlightened determined to seek justice and truth above a win.
I'd rather have seen a little more development in Klavier or at least if I could have not liked him a little to make him seem more like an enemy than an ally.
He's too....damn....likeable.
I mean in my opinion a prosecutor should command a certain....aura in the courtroom. One of fear.
Karma did it with a snap of his fingers,
His daughter used physical violence with her whip.
Godot had his hot steaming mug of third degree burns on Phoenix's face.
Also Edgeworth's extremely serious nature just gave me chills.
But Klavier...I just can't take him seriously, he's too nice he gets an air guitar pose in court! I mean...there's prescence...but it's not threatening.
Upon meeting Klavier I thought he seemed to have the attitude of Edgeworth after his time away, enlightened determined to seek justice and truth above a win.
I'd rather have seen a little more development in Klavier or at least if I could have not liked him a little to make him seem more like an enemy than an ally.
*cough* I liked Klavier- just because he's nice doesn't mean that he's a bad prosecutor. He presents evidence when he needs to, and while I agree that he could be a little more agressive, it doesn't make the game any easier: it's still a challenge to win the case. All he really gives is hints that you usually don't get.
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Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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If you can all stop drooling over Klavier for a second it'd be great.Also I'd like to point out that real prosecutors don't air guitar in court (though it'd rock if they did).
The hinting thing is fine normally but...I'd rather have someone who I could still look at as an enemy or at least if they'd given him a little character development. From start to finish he never changes from a nice guy which is a good thing but I thought they did the right thing with edgeworth where he changed over the course of the game. I'd just rather see a prosecutor try and get the guilty verdict for once but most of the time Klavier was concerned with the truth.
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Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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vs. - angsty past
- phoenix's childhood friend
- know's EVERYTHING in court
- rumored to "not be above cheating"
- brother complex
- rock god fangirl fodder
- wants only the truth
granted,
made for a more aggressive rival in the first game, but that was heavily tied into the game's plot itself. (same for ) but just like 
had little to do with GS2's plot (she was pretty much left underdeveloped and all she had was her whip and her good looks), 
was the same case. in fact, i'd say he was even more well developed than franziska since he had a case that pretty much gave us a glimpse into his life instead of leaving everything into a 2-minute post-credits scene.i felt GS 1 was more of edgeworth's game than phoenix's but we got to see nick shine during GS 2 and GS 3. GS 4 was reallie more of phoenix's game than apollo's game. klavier wasn't involved much because unlike how the first game focused on edgeworth, the fourth game didn't reallie focus on him. but i'm sure that'll be remedied in GS 5.
Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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peach_zelda wrote:
well let's compare nick's first rival prosecutor with polly's first rival prosecutor: vs.
- angsty past
- phoenix's childhood friend
- know's EVERYTHING in court
- rumored to "not be above cheating"
- brother complex
- rock god fangirl fodder
- wants only the truth
granted, made for a more aggressive rival in the first game, but that was heavily tied into the game's plot itself. (same for ) but just like had little to do with GS2's plot (she was pretty much left underdeveloped and all she had was her whip and her good looks), was the same case. in fact, i'd say he was even more well developed than franziska since he had a case that pretty much gave us a glimpse into his life instead of leaving everything into a 2-minute post-credits scene.
i felt GS 1 was more of edgeworth's game than phoenix's but we got to see nick shine during GS 2 and GS 3. GS 4 was reallie more of phoenix's game than apollo's game. klavier wasn't involved much because unlike how the first game focused on edgeworth, the fourth game didn't reallie focus on him. but i'm sure that'll be remedied in GS 5.
vs. - angsty past
- phoenix's childhood friend
- know's EVERYTHING in court
- rumored to "not be above cheating"
- brother complex
- rock god fangirl fodder
- wants only the truth
granted,
made for a more aggressive rival in the first game, but that was heavily tied into the game's plot itself. (same for ) but just like had little to do with GS2's plot (she was pretty much left underdeveloped and all she had was her whip and her good looks), was the same case. in fact, i'd say he was even more well developed than franziska since he had a case that pretty much gave us a glimpse into his life instead of leaving everything into a 2-minute post-credits scene.i felt GS 1 was more of edgeworth's game than phoenix's but we got to see nick shine during GS 2 and GS 3. GS 4 was reallie more of phoenix's game than apollo's game. klavier wasn't involved much because unlike how the first game focused on edgeworth, the fourth game didn't reallie focus on him. but i'm sure that'll be remedied in GS 5.
So the conclusion is.....umm Klavier COULD be the great rival but it just wasn't his game in GS4? Well maybe now that Phoenix's story seems tied up GS5 will focus solidly on Klavier and Herr Justice though to be honest I don't know how much more there is to explore in Herr Justice's past Case 4 pretty much summed it up, and I don't think there's anything special about Klavier's past either
nevermind I'm sure the good old folks at Capcom will think of something. 
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Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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FdrlPrsctrTails wrote:
I liked him because he behaved like a REAL Prosecutor. Everything else was just icing on his chest the cake.
I don't play Ace Attorney for information on how courts really work, I play it for entertainment.
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Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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Herr Blondie wrote:
So the conclusion is.....umm Klavier COULD be the great rival but it just wasn't his game in GS4? Well maybe now that Phoenix's story seems tied up GS5 will focus solidly on Klavier and Herr Justice though to be honest I don't know how much more there is to explore in Herr Justice's past Case 4 pretty much summed it up, and I don't think there's anything special about Klavier's past either nevermind I'm sure the good old folks at Capcom will think of something.
nevermind I'm sure the good old folks at Capcom will think of something. they better come up with something. since they pretty much gave us a phoenix based plot, we know more about phoenix, and we've certainly learned more about trucy and the gramarye's. but we know almost nothing about apollo's past except who his mother was. we don't know anything about his friends, why he become a lawyer, the list goes on. at least all that was explained in phoenix's arc. capcom has yet to elaborate on this matter. as for klavier, they better flesh his story out some more. all we know is that he's a rock star who likes women and has somewhat of a brother complex.
Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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It's someone who just openly cheats and robs the challenge from the cases.
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Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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Especially when I can't fast-forward through the guitar solos.
And his speech pattern that's very reminiscent of Nanette from Angela Anaconda ("-phrase-. That's French for _____")
But I don't feel the same vibes I got from Edgey.
Like, Edgeworth didn't just walk into Phoenix's office early in the morning to tell him to go somewhere.
Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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My problem with him was that he was such a freakin' Marty Stu.
So he's
But does he ever have a significant moment of weakness to compensate? No, he seems to be always on top of things intellectually, unless he is misled by circumstance - in which case, he brushes them off and guns after the real villain. I'd love to call his moment of anger at the start of 4-3 an exposure for him, really I would, but his supposed "perfectionism" is a sloppily done and irrelevant factor to the point where it isn't even a flaw,
Spoiler: 4-3
I think I'd have even accepted the above flaws if he were any good in court. If he could make a really good long-term rival for Apollo. But he just doesn't. Edgeworth was a good rival for Phoenix not because he humped question after question onto him, but because he would always adapt. Forgive the comparison now, but Edgeworth (being our current comparison for "good rival" in AJ's case) seemed to be the most prepared, versatile and resourceful of the three prosecutors in the previous games.
Klavier felt like Franziska in that he would, for the grossly most part, spout information about one plot device for five minutes and then expect that to win the entire case without doing anything else, no matter how many holes there are in his logic. Case in point, 4-3 and those "fingerprints". The best moment I saw with him was his explanation for Stickler's position at the start of 4-2's first day of trial.
I can't not see him as anything other than another attempt to reel in fangirls for his looks and constant coolness. Which has worked for the most part, undeniably.
Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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Spoiler: does this count?
So I guess he's some tortured soul deep inside. Or whatever.
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Forgive the comparison now, but Edgeworth (being our current comparison for "good rival" in AJ's case) seemed to be the most prepared
True, True.
I just replayed it this past week, and I can't count how many times Klavier said some variation of "I was not informed of this [insert evidence, hole in case, contradiction here.]!!"
Dude. You've been working for seven years now.
Come to court with your shit straight.
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Though thats not saying much since it's barely ever done but it is done slightly more I think.
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Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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There's a reason the labels of Sue and Stu aren't usually applied to canon characters: we give them leeway because, as main characters, they ought to have qualities that separate them from the rest of the cast. And even though Klavier did seem to be a few steps ahead of Apollo through most of the game, he does get put in his place a few times. He acts like a total baby in 4-3 over all the petty problems he ran into, and by 4-4 he has to *beg* Apollo to reassure him before he gets the confidence to start fighting again.
In the grand scheme of things, I'm glad we had a prosecutor like Klavier - if nothing else, he's a break from the angry, stubborn, "I don't really care about doing my job properly" prosecutors we've had before. And since part of AJ was making it intentionally easier to get new people into the series, the fact that he isn't a mad challenge is forgiveable. I don't want to see a whole bunch of nice prosecutors because the novelty would wear off, but assuming GS5 ramps up the difficulty and goes back to angry lawyers, I think many of us will look back at Klavier and be grateful that he broke up the monotony.
Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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except for the case 7 years ago, that is when i started too dislike him.
actually i played AJ first before PW 1 - 3, and when i finished the game and move on for the first PW game im kinda surprised that edgeworth is so aggresive.
The same goes to manfred and franziska (im already used to offensive prosecutors when meeting godot)
Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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Da Boss :O wrote:
I agree that "perfection" as a concept in the AA games is overused. But I think if you're going to level accusations of Stu against Klavier for being "perfect" you can't overlook the serious Stu quality of Edgeworth, being the emo-licious center of attention he was in the first game. Or Godot, the angsty-past juggernaut who was lauded by several characters as an amazing prosecutor before ever taking case.
That's the funny thing about Edgeworth. For all his brilliance (to which there was a limit), his character wasn't perfect. He had this social awkwardness around him, a sense of strict professionalism that never faded - he's the type more lively as a sober prosecutor behind a bench than a drunk in a club, to give a comical comparison - despite all the times he'd co-operate with you. It's not the kind of trait which splits the public in half on whether he's a nice guy or an ass, it's the kind of thing you look at and say "Hm, this character could improve on this" or even "I wouldn't behave like this if I were him". Most of the PW cast, or at least those of them who need it, had this certain factor - Phoenix could be incessantly cynical (though polite enough to never voice such pessimism), Maya could be daft and short-sighted, etc. Thus, he's balanced.Klavier, on the other hand, is likeable from the start. He ends up being on the Stu level by not caring about the Stu level, by being everything people like and nothing in recompense. His background immediately
Spoiler: AJ, potentially
Therein lies the flaw. By there being nothing wrong, he's wrong. A
I'd love it if we didn't have to bring Godot or TnT characters into this as TnT has yet to be released in Europe.
Da Boss wrote:
And even though Klavier did seem to be a few steps ahead of Apollo through most of the game, he does get put in his place a few times. He acts like a total baby in 4-3 over all the petty problems he ran into, and by 4-4 he has to *beg* Apollo to reassure him before he gets the confidence to start fighting again.
That's another thing that irked me. Whenever he was put in his place, it was never his fault. It was never a simple oversight on his part, just that of someone else on the police force. He never cried "Gah! Damn you Forehead for using my own logic against me in a way I never foresaw!", he cried "What? There was another piece of the puzzle that I never knew about? NO WONDER you were able to counter me so cleverly. Thanks, I can work the rest out myself now and get back to humouring you."
Da Boss wrote:
In the grand scheme of things, I'm glad we had a prosecutor like Klavier - if nothing else, he's a break from the angry, stubborn, "I don't really care about doing my job properly" prosecutors we've had before. And since part of AJ was making it intentionally easier to get new people into the series, the fact that he isn't a mad challenge is forgiveable. I don't want to see a whole bunch of nice prosecutors because the novelty would wear off, but assuming GS5 ramps up the difficulty and goes back to angry lawyers, I think many of us will look back at Klavier and be grateful that he broke up the monotony.
I'm grateful for the nice aspect too - I just really think it wasn't done anywhere near as well as it should have been. A helpful prosecutor who doesn't need to be schooled into the ethics of their job is a fresh idea, but how it was executed...ugh.
Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
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OBJECTION " i objection this is objectionable"
OBJECTION " i object to the witnesses talkitiveness"
OBJECTION " i object to the witnesses talkitiveness"
Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
Gettin' Old!
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) but I suppose the good Doctor there covered my most annoying factor about Klavier....he's got no drawback nothing that makes him the slightest bit wrong ever. The most I ever seen him struggle is in the last case, and it wasn't even Apollo who made him sweat but as much as I like an enjoyable character I think the methods used to bring about one are wrong in this case.
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Re: Klavier...new prosecutor on the block, is he good enough?
machinimator
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See, there are already a number of people who didn't like Klavier. I'd say quite a few more than were for GS3. Honestly, I see very few people willing to stand up and say they hated toaster-face. That alone is proof that there IS a problem with Klavier. Now the only thing is to find out exactly what it is.
Personally, I think it's that he never had a strong character change. That's when someone has a large change in character over a certain issue, and has a large speech about it with their theme playing. Usually it involves them confessing a fault with themselves, and possibly apologizing for constantly taunting the defense attorney.
For Edgeworth, it would be when he is himself accused of murder, and has to accept Phoenix's help.
For Franziska, it would be her being brought to tears by Edgeworth at the end of JFA (or possibly just her decision to help Phoenix at all)
Godot (well, this one's obvious)
For Klavier, it was that speech at the end, where he apologized to Apollo.
Klavier: Soon after my brother was sent to prison, I pulled some strings and got the case file for the Borschte Bowl Club. The one thing that stuck out to me was that bloody ace...knowing that the "great" Phoenix Wright was the defendant, I knew what happened, and I felt something had to be done. Even if he wasn't still defending, he was mentoring you. And as much as my loyalty lies with the Gavinner's fans, it lies more with my duty as a prosecutor. I had stopped Phoenix Wright from falsifying evidence, and I wanted to personally ensure that such a thing would never happen again. That's why I hated you, Apollo. That's why I took each and every case that you took. To me, you were just a younger, cockier version of him, squirming through on the tiniest of testimony issues. It was only when my brother was on the stand that I started to understand...how wrong he always was about Phoenix. It's not the law that matters now. It's the truth. And the truth is that I've been wrong for seven long years.
...Eeeeexcept that speech never happened. Sure, he gave up his band, but he still has the same aura of wanting to avoid ever saying something "uncool".
Sorry Croik, but it's my opinion that the "villain"s views should directly contradict your own. That doesn't mean they should be a completely undynamic character, or hate everyone and want to destroy the world with fire, but at the very LEAST feel strongly about SOMETHING.
Klavier: Heyaso dis gangster he did it.
<20 minutes later>
Klavier: Ooooohno it wa' dis chick. I knew that. I'm still cool. Whatever. I lose 'n stuff. Are we rehearsing something tonight?
Klavier: If'n you say one ting about dis accusement making no sense, I make a song called "Atroquinine 'n Herr Forehead, Down Da Throat" Capeesh?
<20 minutes later>
Klavier: Daryan, youse fired. Yeah, I can fire my own friend. I'm cool like that. I knew he was da murderer, I was just testing you. I'm still cool. I'm still cool.
Klavier: Process of elimination accusement be TRIPPIN', yo.
<20 minutes later>
Klavier: Ooh, my BROTHER? Screw you Apollo, I take this one now. Yeah, I'm pretty much used to being wrong now. I mean, right. I knew he did it. I'm still cool. Don't believe me? (Airguitar)
I'm gone for so long, and the colors got all psychedelic! Woohoo!
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