Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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It is, however, the easiest Ace Attorney game since Phoenix Wright 1, but I'm confident that Apollo Justice 2 will be more difficult even if they don't change the gameplay.
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Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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AJ was probably a bit easier to introduce new players.
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Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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grim_tales wrote:
AJ was probably a bit easier to introduce new players.
Not just "probably", the creators came out and said as much long before the game was out. I'm sure the next one will raise it up a notch.
Though as for linearity, I don't think there's much they can/should do about that. It's a text adventure, not a "choose your own adventure", and it couldn't reasonably be one anyway. Not to mention what a headache it would be determining canon with more than one ending to the game!
Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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grim_tales wrote:
I wonder if they'll call it Apollo Justice 2 or Apollo Justice: Subtitle? I guess the latter.
Yep, probably a subtitle. Considering they did that with JFA and T&T, I see no reason to just change it for GS5.
Hm... although I couldn't see them just doing "Apollo Justice 2", I could see them randomly changing it to "Apollo Justice 2: Subtitle".
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Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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grim_tales wrote:
The PW games have always been linear to a degree, but I thought AJ seemed easier than the others. What do you reckon Capcom could/should/will do to make GS5 harder? Not just longer, but maybe it shouldnt have an aide who tells you EVERYTHING, I think Psyche locks should be brought back too, make it harder in court to decide what evidence to present. More twists, more turns... the mystery writing and characters is why I grew to love this series.
"Even though there's a young life on the line, I won't tell you how the trick was done because it's against magician's rules, even though you couldn't care less."
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Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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Croik wrote:
grim_tales wrote:
AJ was probably a bit easier to introduce new players.
Not just "probably", the creators came out and said as much long before the game was out. I'm sure the next one will raise it up a notch.
Though as for linearity, I don't think there's much they can/should do about that. It's a text adventure, not a "choose your own adventure", and it couldn't reasonably be one anyway. Not to mention what a headache it would be determining canon with more than one ending to the game!
Nonlinearity can be done, and done well, in text adventures, but I don't think the GS series is the place for it, because the stories do really have one truth to them. Multiple endings will always be BAD ENDs, which gets old. (Especially if they keep having only one save file. I avoided spoilers for JfA, except I knew there were two endings on the last case. I thought the branch point was much earlier than it was, and so I kept my save there, even when that meant a restart or two when I messed up. Oops. I had to hit a walkthrough to see the BAD END, actually -- only thing I've gone to a walkthrough for in the games.)
There are some minor branching points -- when I was copying out the script for 3-4, there's a reasonably long split where you can present either of two pieces of evidence, get a long scene, and then finally get prompted to present again, at which point you need to present the other one, at which point you get more different text, and then finally they merge back together. I'd bet most people only ever see one version of that. It's a lot of text for very little difference, since the trial moves right along after. It's neat, especially since there's some
Spoiler: minor 3-4 spoiler
(If anyone is really that curious, that part of the script is at http://valentinite.livejournal.com/3752.html)
Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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grim_tales wrote:
AJ was probably a bit easier to introduce new players.
Ironically, a very few people started the series with Apollo Justice.
4-1 isn't a good introductory case anyway.
Still much better than 2-1. I like 2-1 (it's better than 4-1), but that was a horrible introduction to the series.
Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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3-1 was very easy and logical.
2-1 was way too hard, confusing and flawed (broken neck).
It took me a while to figure out that I need to present the gloves (the left handed-thing, which is stupid, since I am right handed, but I can still write with my left hand, but I can't write with either hand if my neck is broken lol).
Also, how was I supposed to know that baseball gloves are worn on the opposite hand than the main hand?
That telephone number thing at the end was also pretty hard to figure out. Seriously, I presented the phone only because that was the only one that hasn't been presented yet, and it was the so-called "final evidence".
I'm not saying that 2-1 is a bad case, but it's definitely one of the hardest cases in the series.
3-1 was a good introductory in terms of gameplay and its story was comprehensible without knowing AA1 and JFA.
3-2, however, suffers from the same problem as 2-1. It's just too hard and far-fetched.
Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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Szabu wrote:
What?
3-1 was very easy and logical.
2-1 was way too hard, confusing and flawed (broken neck).
It took me a while to figure out that I need to present the gloves (the left handed-thing, which is stupid, since I am right handed, but I can still write with my left hand, but I can't write with either hand if my neck is broken lol).
Also, how was I supposed to know that baseball gloves are worn on the opposite hand than the main hand?
That telephone number thing at the end was also pretty hard to figure out. Seriously, I presented the phone only because that was the only one that hasn't been presented yet, and it was the so-called "final evidence".
I'm not saying that 2-1 is a bad case, but it's definitely one of the hardest cases in the series.
3-1 was a good introductory in terms of gameplay and its story was comprehensible without knowing AA1 and JFA.
3-2, however, suffers from the same problem as 2-1. It's just too hard and far-fetched.
3-1 was very easy and logical.
2-1 was way too hard, confusing and flawed (broken neck).
It took me a while to figure out that I need to present the gloves (the left handed-thing, which is stupid, since I am right handed, but I can still write with my left hand, but I can't write with either hand if my neck is broken lol).
Also, how was I supposed to know that baseball gloves are worn on the opposite hand than the main hand?
That telephone number thing at the end was also pretty hard to figure out. Seriously, I presented the phone only because that was the only one that hasn't been presented yet, and it was the so-called "final evidence".
I'm not saying that 2-1 is a bad case, but it's definitely one of the hardest cases in the series.
3-1 was a good introductory in terms of gameplay and its story was comprehensible without knowing AA1 and JFA.
3-2, however, suffers from the same problem as 2-1. It's just too hard and far-fetched.
Ah, opinions. Why do you differ so?
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Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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Szabu wrote:
What?
3-1 was very easy and logical.
2-1 was way too hard, confusing and flawed (broken neck).
It took me a while to figure out that I need to present the gloves (the left handed-thing, which is stupid, since I am right handed, but I can still write with my left hand, but I can't write with either hand if my neck is broken lol).
Also, how was I supposed to know that baseball gloves are worn on the opposite hand than the main hand?
That telephone number thing at the end was also pretty hard to figure out. Seriously, I presented the phone only because that was the only one that hasn't been presented yet, and it was the so-called "final evidence".
I'm not saying that 2-1 is a bad case, but it's definitely one of the hardest cases in the series.
3-1 was a good introductory in terms of gameplay and its story was comprehensible without knowing AA1 and JFA.
3-2, however, suffers from the same problem as 2-1. It's just too hard and far-fetched.
3-1 was very easy and logical.
2-1 was way too hard, confusing and flawed (broken neck).
It took me a while to figure out that I need to present the gloves (the left handed-thing, which is stupid, since I am right handed, but I can still write with my left hand, but I can't write with either hand if my neck is broken lol).
Also, how was I supposed to know that baseball gloves are worn on the opposite hand than the main hand?
That telephone number thing at the end was also pretty hard to figure out. Seriously, I presented the phone only because that was the only one that hasn't been presented yet, and it was the so-called "final evidence".
I'm not saying that 2-1 is a bad case, but it's definitely one of the hardest cases in the series.
3-1 was a good introductory in terms of gameplay and its story was comprehensible without knowing AA1 and JFA.
3-2, however, suffers from the same problem as 2-1. It's just too hard and far-fetched.
The baseball glove deduction was easy for me. That's because I kept wearing left handed gloves even though I'm a rihty when I was young.
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Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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(I don't even know the exact rules, lol)
Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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grim_tales wrote:
What do you reckon Capcom could/should/will do to make GS5 harder?
Get rid of Klavier, and have a prosecutor that means business such as
or 
.*wishes that 1-4 never happened so that he could face
again*
Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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In terms of difficulty AJ wasn't as hard as the others, although to be honest I think this was a good thing, some of the contradictions in the last games were way to obscure. (although I don't agree with the shortness of the last courtroom section)
Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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grim_tales wrote:
4-1 was an excellent case IMO, maybe not as an "introduction" but excellent nonetheless.
This. Great twist IMO. Even though I spoiled myself silly, I still get goosebumps when I think about it's conclusion.
fuck
Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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...the first game was easy?...and I used to feel so smart when I got something right.
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Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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As Phoenix gets better as his job, you will get better at the game, at finding contradictions, at figuring out thing and debating in general.
Trust me, most non-PW-fans don't even have a chance against me in arguing
But aside, PW isn't getting harder progressively.
Each case can be different in difficulty, like 3-2 was very hard, but then 3-3 was very easy.
The hardest cases in the series are 1-5, 2-3 and 3-2.
Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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Szabu wrote:
That's how you are supposed to feel.
As Phoenix gets better as his job, you will get better at the game, at finding contradictions, at figuring out thing and debating in general.
Trust me, most non-PW-fans don't even have a chance against me in arguing
But aside, PW isn't getting harder progressively.
Each case can be different in difficulty, like 3-2 was very hard, but then 3-3 was very easy.
The hardest cases in the series are 1-5, 2-3 and 3-2.
As Phoenix gets better as his job, you will get better at the game, at finding contradictions, at figuring out thing and debating in general.
Trust me, most non-PW-fans don't even have a chance against me in arguing
But aside, PW isn't getting harder progressively.
Each case can be different in difficulty, like 3-2 was very hard, but then 3-3 was very easy.
The hardest cases in the series are 1-5, 2-3 and 3-2.
You have it backwards. He said it was easy.
Funny how I found 3-2 easy, but not 3-1...
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Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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NinjaMonkey wrote:
grim_tales wrote:
What do you reckon Capcom could/should/will do to make GS5 harder?
Get rid of Klavier, and have a prosecutor that means business such as
or .*wishes that 1-4 never happened so that he could face
again*But then you would never have seen Von Karma, and you'd be wishing there were more cases in the first game, and then you'd be wishing that the case hadn't happened so Von Karma could show up, but then you wouldn't, but then you would...
TIME PARADOX!
Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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Café au lait wrote:
NinjaMonkey wrote:
grim_tales wrote:
What do you reckon Capcom could/should/will do to make GS5 harder?
Get rid of Klavier, and have a prosecutor that means business such as
or .*wishes that 1-4 never happened so that he could face
again*But then you would never have seen Von Karma, and you'd be wishing there were more cases in the first game, and then you'd be wishing that the case hadn't happened so Von Karma could show up, but then you wouldn't, but then you would...
TIME PARADOX!NO TIME PARADOX. We wouldn't know about Karma, so we wouldn't want him to show up.
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Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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every damn time she'd say THAT'S WEIRD POLLY and apollo would go "what is she talking about?" i facepalmed a thousand times
Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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Quote:
You have it backwards. He said it was easy.
What I meant to say (if you're talking about me at all) is that the first game had some hard moments. Now I realize that what I was dealing with is pom-pom easy compared to the other games...I hope I can make that clear.
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Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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I'm confused dot com. *shot in the UK*
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Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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DramaticaXIV2 wrote:
Hmm? I think that's what I meant, but looking back...
I'm confused dot com. *shot in the UK*
I'm confused dot com. *shot in the UK*
OH NO.
At least you didn't bring up Ocean Finance.
Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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Salutation Here wrote:
DramaticaXIV2 wrote:
Hmm? I think that's what I meant, but looking back...
I'm confused dot com. *shot in the UK*
I'm confused dot com. *shot in the UK*
OH NO.
At least you didn't bring up Ocean Finance.
Wait, am I missing something?
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Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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grim_tales wrote:
What do you reckon Capcom could/should/will do to make GS5 harder?
1) Actully have prosecutors who care about getting the defendants guilty.
2) Expand on the scientific investgations so they're not just simplistic 10 second minigames.
3) Not have your aides almost literally walk you through everything in every case.
4) Save the actual good and interesting cases for the last chapter. (looks at 4-1)
5) Make the percieve system actully take skill, and not just some random game of trial and error.
6) Don't make the final section of the last trial consisting of you almost entirely pressing the 'A' button and listening to banter between four characters ending with a last choice that's almost literally "Do you want to win the game; Yes or No?"
7) Bring back the character profile presenting!!!
Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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DarkWobbuffet wrote:
grim_tales wrote:
What do you reckon Capcom could/should/will do to make GS5 harder?
1) Actully have prosecutors who care about getting the defendants guilty.
2) Expand on the scientific investgations so they're not just simplistic 10 second minigames.
3) Not have your aides almost literally walk you through everything in every case.
4) Save the actual good and interesting cases for the last chapter. (looks at 4-1)
5) Make the percieve system actully take skill, and not just some random game of trial and error.
6) Don't make the final section of the last trial consisting of you almost entirely pressing the 'A' button and listening to banter between four characters ending with a last choice that's almost literally "Do you want to win the game; Yes or No?"
7) Bring back the character profile presenting!!!
I agree with all of these, except 5, since I was actually pretty good at this (Brushel being the only exception).
Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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DarkWobbuffet wrote:
3) Not have your aides almost literally walk you through everything in every case.
DramaticaXIV2 wrote:
"Even though there's a young life on the line, I won't tell you how the trick was done because it's against magician's rules, even though you couldn't care less."Also, I agree with NinjaMonkey. It wasn't trial and error, but easy. Though Brushel was hard...
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Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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DarkWobbuffet wrote:
1) Actully have prosecutors who care about getting the defendants guilty.
No more von Karmas!
Having the prosecutor like late Edgey, and not actually doing your work for you (Godot, BTW, was worse for that than Klavier) would be good, but from a narrative POV, prosecutors who want to CONVICT, rather than getting to the truth, would be a boring throwback. We've already done it with early Edgey, and both von Karmas, we don't need to do it again. And it doesn't fit with what Nick was doing in AJ.
Things to increase difficulty I'd like to see:
Prosecutors who let you do your job.
More complex cases.
When giving you multiple choices, more options that aren't obvious jokes. Like, 2 serious options, rather than 2 silly options.
Occasionally levying penalties for choosing the wrong serious option. Never for the jokes, and it's not always appropriate for the serious choices, but occasionally.
Things I wouldn't like to see come up again:
Witnesses who can levy penalties because you press them.
Cases where all you're doing is buying time.
Testimonies where you can logically present the same evidence to the same effect at two or more points, but it'll only accept it at one. (I have yet to get a perfect score on a non-tutorial case because I invariably choose the wrong ones first.)
Sloppy translation so that evidence only makes sense in context after it's been presented.
Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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DramaticaXIV2 wrote:
:minuki: "Even though there's a young life on the line, I won't tell you how the trick was done because it's against magician's rules, even though you couldn't care less."
I said ALMOST.
Quote:
Having the prosecutor like late Edgey, and not actually doing your work for you (Godot, BTW, was worse for that than Klavier) would be good, but from a narrative POV, prosecutors who want to CONVICT, rather than getting to the truth, would be a boring throwback. We've already done it with early Edgey, and both von Karmas, we don't need to do it again. And it doesn't fit with what Nick was doing in AJ.
Personally I think more prosecutors like Klavier would be more boring. This is more of a personal preference really, but I love going up against the prosecutors in the previous three games and not only taking down the murderer, but giving the prosecutor a taste of humble pie. The fact that the prosecution in the previous three games were so hard on me makes the cases much more interesting and exciting.
Take the ending of 1-2 for instance. Even after having proved the witness knew about the light stand and there being no other explanation other then he was the murderer, Edgeworth STILL tried to extend the trial, determined to find Phoenix guilty. It was frustrating, but in a good way, cause it just made winning that much more great.
Another good example is 2-2, where we not only save Maya and take down the murderer, but we also take down the smug and overconfident Franziska. Even though Phoenix got a sound whip-beating afterwards, the fact that I permenantly stained the perfect record she bragged about was incredably satisfying.
This is the kind of feeling I never got in Ace Attorney 4, because it felt like Klavier was almost always on my side. (I bolded "almost so everyone could read it.
)I suppose a 2-4 Edgeworth style prosecutor would be fine, as long as they still make things hard on me, but I would gladly welcome a prosecutor who wishes death on the defendant moreso.
Perhapes they could make a prosecutor who dosen't care about a perfect record, but maybe just a person who hates murderers and is so determined to get rid of them they'd break the rules to get the guilty sentence. I wrote a prosecutor for a fan fic who does something similar to this.
Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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DarkWobbuffet wrote:
The fact that the prosecution in the previous three games were so hard on me makes the cases much more interesting and exciting.
Again, Godot did a LOT more of the 'hey, here's the evidence you need to present' than Klavier - at least with Klavier it made SENSE when he did it.
And what made the games interesting and exciting was solving the mysteries and proving what happened, not being insulted by asshole prosecutors.
Quote:
Even after having proved the witness knew about the light stand and there being no other explanation other then he was the murderer, Edgeworth STILL tried to extend the trial, determined to find Phoenix guilty.
That crap is exactly my point, actually.
When it stops being about challenging the player by giving them a mystery, and starts being about giving them the finger by pulling out crap at the last minute, because the opposing character is a jackass, then it stops being a fun game, and becomes a frustrating exercise in tolerance.
Quote:
I suppose a 2-4 Edgeworth style prosecutor would be fine, as long as they still make things hard on me, but I would gladly welcome a prosecutor who wishes death on the defendant moreso.
That's not different in its effect to Manfred or Franziska, or early Edgey. It still takes the challenge out of the game and replaces it with frustration (which is never a good thing).
The prosecutor should only be there to present the opposite side of the case. When their job is to make the defence attorney's - and thus the player's - life miserable, that's not fun.
You know what kind of prosecutor we haven't seen in the game?
A competent prosecutor, who's convinced the defendant is guilty and adamantly tries to prove that...without manufacturing or hiding evidence, without insulting defence counsel, without manipulating the judge.
That would be a welcome change.
Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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it's called opinion, guys
just because you think it is "frustrating and an exercise in tolerance" doesn't mean than someone else does
personally, i agree with wobbu in that klavier was a boring prosecutor to go up against
what ever happened to the "courtroom clash" and its battle of wits?
Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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Kamino Neko wrote:
You know what kind of prosecutor we haven't seen in the game?
A competent prosecutor, who's convinced the defendant is guilty and adamantly tries to prove that...without manufacturing or hiding evidence, without insulting defence counsel, without manipulating the judge.
That would be a welcome change.
A competent prosecutor, who's convinced the defendant is guilty and adamantly tries to prove that...without manufacturing or hiding evidence, without insulting defence counsel, without manipulating the judge.
That would be a welcome change.
Not to mention boring...even more boring to have to go through a 'tutorial case' at the beginning of each game. With what you are suggesting, we might as well have Payne for all of the cases in the game.
Besides, if the defense can have an ace up their sleeve, why can't the prosecution do the same thing?
Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
OBJECTION!
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I agree Character Profile presenting should be brought back.
How else would the science mini games be done or should there just be more of them? I really liked those.
I agree the aide shouldnt help you so much.
There hasnt been any more actual info on GS5 at TGS has there?
Nick and Maya - Friends and Lovers....
Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
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Kamino Neko wrote:
You know what kind of prosecutor we haven't seen in the game?
A competent prosecutor, who's convinced the defendant is guilty and adamantly tries to prove that...without manufacturing or hiding evidence, without insulting defence counsel, without manipulating the judge.
That would be a welcome change.
A competent prosecutor, who's convinced the defendant is guilty and adamantly tries to prove that...without manufacturing or hiding evidence, without insulting defence counsel, without manipulating the judge.
That would be a welcome change.
That will be pretty hard...If the prosecutor was that smart and perfect, he or she wouldn't had arrested a wrong defendant in the first place. :P
Personaly I don't really think Klavier doesn't want a guilty verdict. Yeah he was helpful in the game, but Edgeworth was really helpful,too. I believe the reason why people thought Klavier and Trucy helped too much was just because they knew the answer but Apollo didn't. The players wanted to give the answer by themselves but Klavier and Trucy did it for them, and somehow they thought it was all Klavier's and Trucy's fault.
Another interesting fact is, not all GS players thought so. None of my friends who started to play the series from AJ thought the game was too easy and the prosecutor was too helpful. Personally I think AJ is as difficult as PW1 (if Raise From the Ashes is not counted in,since the original GBA version didn't have that case),it may just be me though.
You can call me whatever you want:3
Re: Way to make GS5/AJ2 harder/less linear?
PLEASE SWIM WITH MEEEEEE!!
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But he's just starting out, so I guess I can forgiv some of it.
And Klavier has nothing personal against Justice and is more interested in the truth than getting a guilty verdict, so he
doesn't mind helping out.
It did seem like everyone was a bit more cooperative in AJ as opposed to PW, where everyone was out to kick Nick's ass.
Work in progress. Avatar by Wrestlemania, if my memory is right.
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