Alternate Timeline?
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Re: Alternate Timeline?
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Szabu wrote:
VERY unlikely.
VERY true.
ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOGANT
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Then:
Crowley wrote:
Now I have images of Phoenix Wright in green sailing on a cell-shaded ocean...
So now: I have nothing to say.
Re: Alternate Timeline?
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DramaticaXIV2 wrote:
Szabu wrote:
VERY unlikely.
VERY true.
what more is there to say?
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Re: Alternate Timeline?
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Waiting For Godot wrote:
I don't think this may be applied to GS5 yet, but does anyone think it's possible for Capcom to make an alternate timeline, where Nick never lost his badge and he continues to defend?
I wish they would, as Apollo is practically useless as a lawyer.*sigh*
EDIT: I'm finally an Ace Attorney (well 9 posts ago anyway)..
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Waiting For Godot wrote:
I don't think this may be applied to GS5 yet, but does anyone think it's possible for Capcom to make an alternate timeline, where Nick never lost his badge and he continues to defend?
Possible that they could write a game which claims it, given the weirdness of MASON Systems, time travel and Miracle Never Happen = yes
Likelihood = no. They spent too much money and promotion on the Apollo Justice game.
Though diversification would be a good thing, but that's what GK is for. I got the feeling Apollo Justice was supposed to be for a different target market than the players of Phoenix's original trilogy. ie. People who had not played Phoenix's trilogy :/
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Re: Alternate Timeline?
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NinjaMonkey wrote:
EDIT: I'm finally an Ace Attorney (well 9 posts ago anyway)..
Ah, I was like that when I became an AA. And I still hate that smilie... what's with the zetta big mouth? Zeesh.
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Re: Alternate Timeline?
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Grrr, GS5 seems so far away :(
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grim_tales wrote:
That seems a bit strange to me, if it is a "different target market", if you've never played PW and only played AJ for the 1st time you'd be going "Who is that strange hobo in the hat?"
Grrr, GS5 seems so far away :(
Grrr, GS5 seems so far away :(
Okay. To elaborate, I think the game developers wanted GS4 to be for a new target market, but to ensure sales, Capcom demanded Phoenix return against the writers' wishes, so that the old target market would also purchase the game. But come on, it's still aimed at new players really. Phoenix is just an emotional hook to lure fans of his trilogy into a sale. (Remember, people in Japan have mostly been playing these over a lot more years than in the West so the 'new player' gap is more pronounced.)
Anyway, now the fanbase is split into people graduating from 'I hate game 4 and don't consider it canon' up to 'I love AJ it's the best and I never want to see Phoenix again/hope he dies next game', it would make sense to make multiple games catering to these different parts of the fanbase, since we'd all end up buying them all anyway. They've already started doing this. GK is an obvious tactic to cater to fans of the original trilogy.
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Re: Alternate Timeline?
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Re: Alternate Timeline?
Cross-examining your posts!
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Re: Alternate Timeline?
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Regy Rusty wrote:
Regy Rusty's intended post: "What is this, Zelda?"
Then:
So now: I have nothing to say.
Then:
Crowley wrote:
Now I have images of Phoenix Wright in green sailing on a cell-shaded ocean...
So now: I have nothing to say.
I..idea sniped? Sorry!(this is the first time something like this has happened to me..)
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Re: Alternate Timeline?
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NinjaMonkey wrote:
Waiting For Godot wrote:
I don't think this may be applied to GS5 yet, but does anyone think it's possible for Capcom to make an alternate timeline, where Nick never lost his badge and he continues to defend?
I wish they would, as Apollo is practically useless as a lawyer.*sigh*
EDIT: I'm finally an Ace Attorney (well 9 posts ago anyway)..
One game does not an accomplished lawyer make.
In other words, don't hate on Polly.
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Re: Alternate Timeline?
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Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
One game does not an accomplished lawyer make.
In other words, don't hate on Polly.
In other words, don't hate on Polly.
Well, Phoenix's development on one game was popular enough to spark an entire unintended trilogy..
GS5 just seems to hinge on the hope that Apollo will receive character development this time.
..uh, anyway. No more Apollo vs Phoenix. Alternate timeline means alternate. But the most I can see is alternate games, not alternate timelines/realities.
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Re: Alternate Timeline?
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icer wrote:
Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
One game does not an accomplished lawyer make.
In other words, don't hate on Polly.
In other words, don't hate on Polly.
Well, Phoenix's development on one game was popular enough to spark an entire unintended trilogy..
GS5 just seems to hinge on the hope that Apollo will receive character development this time.
..uh, anyway. No more Apollo vs Phoenix. Alternate timeline means alternate. But the most I can see is alternate games, not alternate timelines/realities.
It's called "Better pacing".
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Re: Alternate Timeline?
Overruled?
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Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
It's called "Better pacing".
No, it's called "half-assed lazy writing".
Some character development and background is better then none.
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Spoiler:
However, I've never actually played AJ, so feel free to correct me if this isn't possible.
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ILikeShinyMirrors wrote:
I've heard the theory that AJ is an alternate timeline itself.
However, I've never actually played AJ, so feel free to correct me if this isn't possible.
Spoiler:
However, I've never actually played AJ, so feel free to correct me if this isn't possible.
Nick lost his badge for another reason. I don't recall any references to the events of 2-4 whatsoever.
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Jojje Cadaverini wrote:
ILikeShinyMirrors wrote:
I've heard the theory that AJ is an alternate timeline itself.
However, I've never actually played AJ, so feel free to correct me if this isn't possible.
Spoiler:
However, I've never actually played AJ, so feel free to correct me if this isn't possible.
Nick lost his badge for another reason. I don't recall any references to the events of 2-4 whatsoever.
Yeah, the bad ending in 2-4 says that Phoenix never went to court again, and never saw Maya again, and both of these contradict the events of AJ.
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DarkWobbuffet wrote:
Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
It's called "Better pacing".
No, it's called "half-assed lazy writing".
Some character development and background is better then none.
I would rather Apollo leave doors open for more characterization and background than what they did with Phoenix: give him a backstory in the first game, and then invent another set of events for the third game. T&T reveals that Phoenix and Mia have a shared history together, something that could have been played on in the first game had they thought of it then. Phoenix talks about how he became a lawyer because of something that happened when he was 9, but not about the time he was on trial for murder only a few years before? It borders on ret-con and I never liked that about T&T.
Given what they had to do with AJ, there wasn't much room to delve into Apollo's full backstory. Given that, I'm happier with the IOU than I would be if they gave us a bare bones backstory that may or may not have really affected the plot.
Back on topic, I like the original trilogy and AJ equally. It doesn't have to be one or the other, and I think creating an alternate timeline would ultimately just make people more irritable.
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They've given Polly a different sort of backstory. Instead of focussing on 'Why I'ma Lawyerz' they're building up his family connections. Whereas we know nothing about Nick's life apart from the things that link to his profession.
We only get to see that side of him in GS4
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And, in all honesty, I think they gave us plenty of interesting information and hints about Polly's past--basically, what Gerk said.
Back to the original topic: I don't know whhat I'd think about an alternate timeline. I think I'd just get confused, and in the end probably consider the current timeline to be the ultimate and completely canon timeline.
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Croik wrote:
Given what they had to do with AJ, there wasn't much room to delve into Apollo's full backstory. Given that, I'm happier with the IOU than I would be if they gave us a bare bones backstory that may or may not have really affected the plot.
Sorry, but as far as we know, the writers didn't have to do anything, aside from making Phoenix a character and promoting the jury system. I'm pretty positive what AJ:AA turned out to be wasn't Capcom exec's intent. The writers weren't "forced" to devote the entire plot to Phoenix and his downfall, and that's also no excuse to under-develop Apollo.
And that "IOU" as you call it is going to cost us 35+ bucks. That's like buying a 35 dollar anime DVD series, and find out it's only four random filler episodes about some other character then the main one.
Gerkuman wrote:
They've given Polly a different sort of backstory. Instead of focussing on 'Why I'ma Lawyerz' they're building up his family connections. Whereas we know nothing about Nick's life apart from the things that link to his profession.
Uh, that's because Phoenix's profession is a LAWYER, and this series is a LAYWER GAME. Of course people are curious about why Apollo is a lawyer, because it relates to plot of a LAWYER GAME. Phoenix's family wasn't important because they had nothing to do with him becoming a lawyer. I'm not saying Apollo's family couldn't be important, but they could have at least given us some kind of background on this subject.
NinjAngel wrote:
I'm guessing that they've roughly planned at least two--hopefully three--games for the AJ arc, which is why we didn't really get to know much about Apollo in his debut game.
See, at this point all you guys are doing is making assumptions that the plot will revolve around Apollo's roots. How do we even know they've already planned everything out? For all we know they just be making it up as they go along, and considering the "masterpieces" 4-3 and 4-4 were, I can't say I'm exactly optimistic about this story. It could be this empty game is leading up to something really good, but on the other hand, the series could also end up a huge turd.
NinjAngel wrote:
And, in all honesty, I think they gave us plenty of interesting information and hints about Polly's past--basically, what Gerk said.
What information?
Spoiler:
I'm sorry, but some of us can't be expected to immedately fall in love with an underdeveloped, generic kid who we know nothing about. I wouldn't get in bed with a first date, and until I actully learn what motivates Apollo and why, I can't care for him as a character.
Re: Alternate Timeline?
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Quote:
I'm sorry, but some of us can't be expected to immedately fall in love with an underdeveloped, generic kid who we know nothing about
It took me all three games to get to really like Nick. It's not like I disliked him, but he never was able to outshine his cohorts, and he just seemed like a lawyer lump to me. There to push the plot along, you know. I needed time to get to know him, because that was the first impression I got.
You may have liked Nick suddenly, but to assume that's the norm, and that Polly is substandard just because you didn't instantly click with him is denying them a chance for you to possibly grow to understand him.
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Gerkuman wrote:
You may have liked Nick suddenly, but to assume that's the norm, and that Polly is substandard just because you didn't instantly click with him is denying them a chance for you to possibly grow to understand him.
You're right, I did like Phoenix after the first game. That's because he was a well-put-together character with real depth, and the next two games only increased my liking of him. Apollo as of right now however, has no depth, and I can't click with him. Maybe I will like him later on in future games when the writers actully get their heads out of barrels of cocaine and do some actual work on his character, but as of right now, I don't care for him.
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DarkWobbuffet wrote:
Oh god, that is the worst catchphrase ever!
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* Polly and Nick would meet at the office in a case or two in each of their games, and Trucy would hang around with both, for instance. And Franzy and Edgy could cross paths while working on cases in the same area, and each of them would be facing Nick or Polly in court.
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Gerkuman wrote:
They've given Polly a different sort of backstory. Instead of focussing on 'Why I'ma Lawyerz' they're building up his family connections. Whereas we know nothing about Nick's life apart from the things that link to his profession.
In the game, Apollo is a lawyer. The game is about him being a lawyer. Hence, insight into his motivations for being a lawyer are in fact important for his character development. Well, yeah, Apollo was cast as Phoenix's Generic Pawn which was a bit unfair on both of them, but surely they could have told us why?
They didn't build up much family connection and Apollo doesn't even know about any of them. It's just a random bonus at the end. "Oh look that was in fact his mother and sister even though he doesn't know so we don't know how this will affect his character." Almost an afterthought by the writers, a factoid with no influence on his characterisation.
Croik wrote:
Given what they had to do with AJ, there wasn't much room to delve into Apollo's full backstory.
I've got to reiterate, there were infinite things they could have done with Apollo and his backstory. The only criteria was the inclusion of Phoenix and promoting a positive view of jury systems. They could have done basically anything at all with this. (Sometimes I wonder if the method used to execute Phoenix's return was some kind of comment of resentment by the writers who didn't want to return him..)
NinjAngel wrote:
I'm guessing that they've roughly planned at least two--hopefully three--games for the AJ arc, which is why we didn't really get to know much about Apollo in his debut game.
If GS5 was kind of mentioned as being worked on for imminent release by the execs, I'd agree, but since it seems they haven't done anything much on GS5 at all, and it's quite a long time since GS4 was released, I don't think they have some nice overarching plot planned out for 2 or 3 games. I think they intend to make it up as they go along.
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Re: Alternate Timeline?
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icer wrote:
In the game, Apollo is a lawyer. The game is about him being a lawyer. Hence, insight into his motivations for being a lawyer are in fact important for his character development.
No, they're not.
It's only important if the story is connected to it. It's no more important than who Phoenix's parents are. Or what Edgeworth does in his down time. Or what kind of relationship Franziska has with her older sister.
'Occupational' dramas (cops, lawyers, doctors, etc) almost never deal with the characters motivations for going into their jobs - they're there, that's all that matters.
What they do in their down time, other aspects of their histories, their relationships with their coworkers and families - all of these are covered...why a particular cop, lawyer, doctor, whatever chose to go into that profession...very rarely, except for the cops who followed their fathers into the force, or the occasional doctor raised by doctors. And even then it's usually an off-hand remark that changes nothing, rather than some Big Thing that's Incredibly Important.
In all the cop and lawyer fiction I've enjoyed over the years (and that's a lot), the only time WHY one of the characters had taken the job they did was treated as important was an episode of Law & Order when a former ADA showed up a few years after leaving the DA's office as a defence attorney - why he moved over to the other side of the aisle was treated as a big deal...but why he had become a lawyer, and specifically a DA, in the first place? Utterly insignificant.
The only thing that's inherently important to a story about a lawyer is what he does as a lawyer. Anything beyond that depends entirely on what stories the writers want to tell.
Ace Attorney has a rather unusual focus on that - we know what prompted Nick, Edgey, Franziska, and Mia to go into the profession, and why Edgey and Godot changed from defence to prosecution... But that doesn't mean that's inherently important - in all of those cases, their reasons for that tie into the story being told at the time. We know why they became lawyers not because it's important for their character development, but because it's important for PLOT development in the case where it's revealed.
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Quote:
It's only important if the story is connected to it.
Character development IS plot related. The Ace Attorney series is a character-driven game, and if you're going to write a good plot for this series, you have to have well-written characters to make it work. Watching the characters develop and reveal their backgrounds is just as important as whatever case is going on at the moment.
Quote:
'Occupational' dramas (cops, lawyers, doctors, etc) almost never deal with the characters motivations for going into their jobs - they're there, that's all that matters.
Ace Attorney =/= All those 'occupational' dramas.
Quote:
The only thing that's inherently important to a story about a lawyer is what he does as a lawyer. Anything beyond that depends entirely on what stories the writers want to tell.
In the Ace Attorney series, the lawyer's background and motivation is just as important as what he does, sometimes moreso. If you want me to like Apollo, I want to actully learn about what kind of person he is beyond the generic avatar we see. I don't give a hoot about him having a mother, I want to learn more about Apollo himself.
Last edited by DynoStretch on Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Alternate Timeline?
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DarkWobbuffet wrote:
Ace Attorney =/= All those 'occupational' dramas.
Right, there are fewer episodes of Ace Attorney across 8 years worth of games than there are in one season of Law & Order or ER, and has to include the gameplay elements, as well - therefor less character development has to be expected across the series.
Quote:
Bullshit.
Acting like a petulant child does nothing to prove your point.
Quote:
In the Ace Attorney series, the lawyer's background and motivation is just as important as what he does, sometimes moreso.
Again, WHY Nick, Edgy, and Mia became lawyers, and why Edgy and Godot switched to prosecution, is only important because it develops the plot of game 1* - Franziska is the only lawyer in the series whose motivations are strictly connected to her character development - and we only learn them in the post-script.
* And, no, plot development and character development are NOT the same thing. The same points can advance both - and do in the stated cases, but they are completely separate things.
Re: Alternate Timeline?
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On the otherhand, I replayed Turnabout Corner and Succession and I enjoyed myself as much as in any other case. Maybe I have more love for the Naruhodo arc, because it's complete, while the Odoroki arc has just scratched the surface.
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Re: Alternate Timeline?
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Pearl the Barrister wrote:
DarkWobbuffet wrote:
Oh god, that is the worst catchphrase ever!
No, "Only my ruby-quartz visor can contain my optic blasts!" is the worst ever.
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Re: Alternate Timeline?
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Bump - bump - bump - bump - bump - bump - bump
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Crowley wrote:
Pearl the Barrister wrote:
DarkWobbuffet wrote:
Oh god, that is the worst catchphrase ever!
No, "Only my ruby-quartz visor can contain my optic blasts!" is the worst ever.
I fight for my friends!
Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
One game does not an accomplished lawyer make.
In other words, don't hate on Polly.
I thought that Phoenix was pretty accomplished after the first game (especially after taking on both Manfred and Gant)...more so than Apollo is.
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DarkWobbuffet wrote:
Kamino Neko wrote:
It's only important if the story is connected to it.
Character development IS plot related. The Ace Attorney series is a character-driven game...
Let's ask the producer, shall we?
Takagi-kun: What is, in your opinion, the biggest quality of the Ace Attorney games?
Matsukawa-San: I would say the characters and the story...but most weight would be on the characters' uniqueness. Obviously the characters and the stories related to them are all connected so the best quality of Ace Attorney is what these elements orchestrate.
Characterisation driven, and the character's relations and development via plot. This is no standard 'legal drama' where the real attraction is the specifics of the case itself, not the characters. Unlike a standard 'occupational drama', the game never aims to present anything remotely resembling an accurate depiction of justice systems, court cases or anything (and cases like 3-5 are as much a supernatural drama as a legal one.)
I'd argue here that the entire success of the first game and the existence of the resultant trilogy and 4th game was due to the superior characterisation of Phoenix, Edgeworth and Maya, particularly in case 1-4, and I'd write a lot more, but this thread seems to be veering very off-topic.. so
I am wondering if GK will accidentally or otherwise impose an 'alternate timeline.' Edgeworth seems to be back in.. whatever city they live in, for at least part of the game... also note that in most promotional materials we see Lawyer Phoenix, not Hobo Phoenix, these days, even alongside Apollo, like that famous picture from the recent concert. Are they going to market Lawyer! Phoenix and his trilogy as some kind of separate property and forget Hobo! Phoenix happened in terms of marketing? DISCUSS.
Also, is the Japanese equivalent of "Here Comes Justice!" just as stupid?
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Actually, it's not worse than "You know why I, Phoenix Wright, am a good lawyer? Because I'm always (W)right."
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Szabu wrote:
I Like Here Comes Justice, it's so corny that it's funny XD
Actually, it's not worse than "You know why I, Phoenix Wright, am a good lawyer? Because I'm always (W)right."
Actually, it's not worse than "You know why I, Phoenix Wright, am a good lawyer? Because I'm always (W)right."
That wasn't Phoenix's catchphrase though. That was him only being able to make a terrible joke.
Also, Apollo says "Justice has arrived."
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