I don't think anyone's saying that all Adriadoney polish is colourless - the only time that comes up is when Kris's polish is being discussed examined or discussed. So...he buys the clear stuff for himself - he keeps his nails nicely polished, but coloured stuff would be too girly (or gothy) for him, I guess) - and gave Vera a bottle of pink - he clearly didn't just drag it out at the spur of the moment (as he couldn't have poisoned it if he did), so there's no reason to think he gave her the same kind that he uses.

Edit, because I missed this post earlier:



Her nails wouldn't really be visible - we only see the back of her hand a couple times, and her fingers are fairly tiny - and her nails likely either well trimmed (as she's an artist) or gnawed off (as she's a biter), so they'd be mere pixels, not big enough to see, thus not worth drawing, unless the colour is a Big Deal, which it isn't - the colour of Vera's polish only comes into play once, as a detail of the bottle's description. Only the colour of Kris's is important.

---

[/quote]Hmm...now that you bring it up, Manfred's motivation seems rather weaker than Kristoph's, if looked at in detail.

Manny's perfect record was broken, but he was still the best prosecutor in the jurisdiction.
Kris had his opportunity to increase his status taken away.

Gregory was doing his job, and Manny really had no way of claiming otherwise.
Zak, as far as Kris knew, was making his decision based on a completely arbitrary factor.[/quote]

Yes, Manny's motive is weaker...until you realize that is' Manfred von Karma. He was perfect in every single part of his entire life, so he's going to take a blemish pretty tough....




The definition of revenge I was using was

not revenge in general. There are several cases where the motive was revenge in general, but I forgot about Morgan and that was her reason for revenge (Albeit slightly altered... "The title of the Master is rightfully mine and Pearl is my daughter, therefore the title of Master is also rightfully hers.")[/quote]

You seem to be forgetting that kristoph's motive for murder wasn't that phoenix robbed him of a case. he killed 2 innocent people (and tried to kill a third) to hide that he destroyed phoenix's career. now that's insane.

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Last edited by Lind on Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

What other contradiction might the nail polish thing solve, Wrestle?

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Clearly you have never seen Yu-Gi-Oh!.>_> The only thing worse than losing at a card game, is losing at a children's card game.

---

[

You, my friend, have NO understanding of the events that took place!

Here's a "Walk-Through" of the events:

Kristoph Gavin, already a well-known defense attorney, had heard of Zak Gramarye's case. According to 4-4, stated by Apollo, "Whoever successfully defended Zak Gramarye in court would be famous beyond belief". Fact or Fiction... sorry, I like that show... Now, lets jump to later. Zak did end up hiring Kristoph Gavin, and Kristoph did lots of research on the case. He would also be facing his brother, Klavier, in what would be Klavier's very first official case.

Kristoph did not want to be humilated by his "Upstart Amateur" of a brother, so despite him having confidence in his own abilities, he chose to forge evidence. When he went to request a forgery to be made, he went to Drew Misham. How he heard of Drew specifically, was never made clear in the game. However, after hearing of Drew, he spent time watching him, and learned of the true "Artist" of Drew Studios. He then went to the Mishams, but not before considering different consequences of what he was doing.

Now, right here, he figured "If I request this forgery, and they talk, all I've worked for will be burned to cinders!" (I'm not quoting the game there!). He proceeded to create his "Traps" for Vera and Drew, and then requested the forgery. He gave Vera a "good luck charm", and then left (There's more to it than that, but I won't bore you guys with the details of their conversation... you're pretty bored from reading THIS, I bet!).

When the forgery was officially made, despite it not making sense HOW he retrieved it without meeting, or mailing, Drew & Vera, he sent Drew his "Payment". Shortly after this, Zak Gramarye gave Kristoph his "test".

... This was, of course... the game of poker... and Kristoph would fail the test, and be fired as Zak's attorney.

With what he believed was nothing more than a loss at a poker game, Kristoph's dreams of fame would end up being a fleeting dream, that was no longer possible to come true. Embarassed, he did not want to let Zak get away with the humiliation Kristoph suffered at Zak's gloved hands. Kristoph would not rest until Zak regretted what he had done, so he decided to see who Zak's NEW attorney would be.

When he learned it was Phoenix Wright, "A man who relies on luck and bluffs" instead of using the law to his advantage like Kristoph had done for so many years, Kristoph got really mad... And decided on how he could take BOTH down with one stone.

On the night before the trial, Kristoph met with his brother, and stated that he would not end up being the defense in the case... However, in exchange, he would "Help" his brother by telling him that there would be illegal evidence created and presented for his brothers' trial, and then he told him how to fix the problem by calling "The Forger" to testify, and then to simply follow Kristoph's instructions.

Finally, it's the day of the trial, and Kristoph sees Zak Gramarye's daughter in the hall. He then asks her to hand the piece of paper in his hand to the "old boy in the blue suit with the spiky hair".

And this would be his revenge against Zak Gramarye... until Zak vanished, and Phoenix decided to pursue the case further to tie up all the loose ends and figure out the dark secrets of the case... However, right before that, the Bar Association voted for the "Strictest Punishment" to be handed down to Phoenix Wright... except for one member... In order to get on Wright's good side, Kristoph Gavin voted in favor of Wright... But there was a problem Kristoph realized: Zak was still out there, as was Phoenix, and the Mishams...

THEN Kristoph realized that no one involved in the case, could be left alive. He began watching 3 people: Spark Brushel, Drew Misham, and of course, Phoenix Wright. Drew, because he had not recieved the letter that he instucted Drew Misham to send him, as per the instructions in the red envelope. Spark, because he was the most connected to Zak Gramarye. And Phoenix, for obvious reasons.

7 years later, he learned Zak Gramarye would need to meet with Phoenix Wright... He learned this, because Spark Brushel was contacted by Zak, and Kristoph was watching Brushel... Kristoph had dinner with Phoenix Wright at the Borsht Bowl Club... I personally believe this was a "Cover" for his real intention: To meet, and kill, Zak Gramarye.

Now we arrive at the "Hydeout Incident". During the game, Kristoph Gavin was waiting behind the cupboard, for the right opportunity to strike. This moment came, when Zak, out of rage, attacked Olga Orly, because Phoenix beat him in a game of poker.

Now THIS was a stupid reason to attack someone!

Anyways, Phoenix decides to run back to the main floor of the Borsht Bowl Club. During this time, Kristoph emerges from his "Hidey-Hole" and strikes Zak with the bottle... killing him. He flees the scene, and Phoenix calls Kristoph minutes later, requesting Kristoph's defense... However, after the conversation with Kristoph, he comes to the conclusion that Kristoph was involved in this crime... and then has Kristoph allow Apollo Justice to represent him in court.

Days later, Kristoph tries to have Apollo Justice wrongfully convict Olga Orly for his crime... But Phoenix covers for Olga, and manages to indict his "Friend" for the crime... Kristoph then chooses to fight fire with fire, and tries getting Phoenix convicted.

THIS tends to get blown past a lot of fans as being merely a case of "Kristoph is trying to get Phoenix convicted so Kristoph doesn't!" but I personally believe that Kristoph wanted Phoenix to get convicted from the start... after all, if he wanted to convict Olga, he wouldn't have needed to steal the card from the scene... And why would he convict Phoenix, you ask?

Because Phoenix Wright knew all about the events from 7 years ago, and was a threat to Kristoph's "Coolest Defense in the West" image.


......... That is all...

... and now my water bottle is empty.

*walks off to get more water*

---

That reminds me of something I found odd about the flashback trial.

Now, normally in the PW world, after the murder is commited and the suspect caught, there is a one day break between the trial and the murder.

If that's the case, then why do they make it seem like Zak's trial took place days after the "murder"? I mean, in the case of Phoenix, he (Phoenix) even said that it was impossible to get a forgery made in a day (or however long after he was hired). So...what happened?

I think this also happened once during Trials and Tribulations, but I'm not sure....

---

Wow, Wrestlemania, that cleared up a lot. I skimmed over the last case in AJ because I was feeling a bit tired, and by the time I got to the final trial scene with Apollo, I had lost track of 75% of the story. My understanding of Kristoph's motivation was basically that "oh damn! zak dumped me to hire phoenix GOTTA GET THAT BASTARD, HOW DARE HE THINK THERE'S SOMEONE BETTER THAN ME". I always did Kristoph's motive a little... bland and paper-thin, or at least my version of it! Now that I've read your post it starts to make a lot more sense.

I have absolutely no idea how I missed so much on my first time through. Goodness me.

---

I'm confused... how is poker a children's card game?

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It's not.O_o I'm just saying.

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Case: 4-4.
Title: Limit of Technology?
Description: According to Ema Skye, Drew Misham was a man who couldn't stand technology. In fact, he didn't even use e-mail.

However, how is it that he happens to have a COMPUTER, if he can't stand technology? (I'm being vague for a reason. )

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Maybe he just uses it as a calculator. Math is hard for a lot of people.

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And I believe Vera used it to help with forgeries and stuff...

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Why not just buy a calculator then?



I guess that might be possible... though I can't imagine seeing him ask another to set up Analysis Programs or request a top-quality scanner, being paranoid and all...

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Not a single thing in that changes my point.

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Actually, your opinion was that he killed because he was pissed off at losing a game of cards.

My point is that he killed because all the work he did, and his dreams of fame, were destroyed.

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LMAO.

Uh, you know, there's a counter for those Yugioh! videos on YouTube. Were they called Yugioh! Abridged? I forget.

Phoenix Wrong and Apollo Injustice. Woo!

I've seen it.^^

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ah, right. i wish you'd just said that specifically rather than giving a summary of a case i've already played four times. yeah, that changes, but the main point i was focused on is that kristoph is a PSYCHOPATH. still, good counter.

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Weirdly enough, i was just watvhing them right before i logged on to court-records. the universe works in unusual ways, i guess.

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Oh, he's a psychopath, but then again, in order to commit murder in the first degree, there tends to be a good chance one would happen to be a bit of a psychopath regardless, eh?

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If it hasn't been given already, I have an explanation for how LeTouse knew Lamiroir was a witness in case 4-3. Her broach. It fell through the vent around the time the second shot was fired. He is an interpol agent, so it's his job to be observant of those little details.

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touche

---

Found another contradiction. At the end of the game, Lamiroir incorrectly states her accident happened ten years ago.

---

My main issue was just that Kristoph's motive and his plans don't really jive all that well. Let's break it down. The ones he's really the angriest at are Phoenix and Zak Gramarye. The forged evidence is the intended method to exact his revenge. If all goes according to his plans, Phoenix is humiliated, his reputation ruined, and he's disbarred - this part obviously was successful. If all went according to the plan for Zak, Zak would be found guilty (due to Phoenix's apparent indiscretions) and sentenced to death/prison... also, this part "worked," although Kristoph couldn't foresee Zak disappearing and going into hiding.

The Mishams are simply tools to be used to create the evidence to set up Phoenix and Zak, yet from the very START, with no real assurance that this plan would even work in any way, they're marked for death, as Kristoph likely mails them the poison trap items before Phoenix even presents it in court. Now, as I said, Phoenix and Zak were the "real" targets, yet he doesn't kill either of them (Zak possibly through indirect execution as a consequence of his guilty verdict), and even in his ideal circumstances, Phoenix would simply be disbarred, not killed or harmed in any further way. His hatred for those two is so strong, yet the repurcussions for those two are far less severe (and far less guaranteed) than the Mishams, who will almost certainly die. Also, he clearly "researched" the Mishams and know they're just a loving single father and an innocent young girl, yet for them it's instant death. Involving them wasn't even necessarily, yet they get the axe, while Phoenix and Zak have far more nebulous fates.

Now, there's also the fact that the plan just plain sucked. There were just so many things that could go wrong. Hell, even if things went perfectly RIGHT (as planned, at least) there were alot of glaring problems, but I'll get to that a bit later. Like I said, the Mishams get shafted from the start, as they get the poisoned items just from creating the evidence. Couldn't Kristoph have come up with some method of vengeance to just go straight for Zak and Phoenix without involving these innocent outsiders? Or hell, if he has no imagination, couldn't he just kill those two directly instead of the Mishams? I mean it's obvious his hatred and "motives" are strong enough so that he has no qualms with murder, so why inflict the harshest punishment (death) on those least worthy of the punishment in Kristoph's eyes? Then there's the delivery of the system, any number of things could have gone wrong with his delivering of the evidence to Phoenix - maybe Trucy wouldn't really give it to Phoenix, maybe Trucy would see someone or something at that time that linked that forged sheet back to Kristoph, etc. Also, the hope that Phoenix uses it exactly as planned has way too many variables. Let's say Phoenix DOESN'T use the evidence for whatever reason (he finds it fishy at the last second, or Klavier doesn't push the idea of the diary in the first place, etc.), Kristoph has now involved the Mishams for no reason (and he's forced to kill them and/or pay them off or whatever), Phoenix isn't implicated in any way, and hell, even Zak might get off since the trial was leaning more against Valant till the forgery came up. There's also the possibility that even with the forged evidence, Zak is found not guilty (since the evidence against him was horrible, and Valant still seemed more guilty) but that would imply the judge actually be logical and impartial, which obviously can't happen (Stupid Judge, that's a rant for another time though).

Now, let's assume that Kristoph's schemes work exactly AS PLANNED. It already worked on Phoenix and Zak (despite Zak's vanishing act), but it failed on the Mishams, as they didn't use the poison traps as planned. Let's assume that they DO though. The poison stamp actually WAS a good idea, as the stamp disappears into the mail and leaves Vera as a suspect, or at least leaves it up in the air. BUT, at this point Vera is 12 years old and has no plausible motive or method of killing AND Drew has just testified in a murder case about forging evidence. They search the apartment, find Vera's bottle of nail polish which matches the poison, she tells them where she got the bottle, and it leads back to Kristoph. Let's assume SHE dies first. She's 12 years old and murdered. Again, they'll find the bottle, know the connection with the trial and the forging and liknk it back to Kristoph. Now let's assume that somehow the two both die at the same time, the authorities would still find the poison, see the obvious connection to the forging case and Kristoph is implicated again. Killing the forgers to "clean things up" really is a horrible plan in the first place (even worse when we realize that the two in question are a hermit and a 12-year old girl). Kristoph actually got LUCKY that the two didn't get poisoned right away... the 7-year delay made everyone forget about the previous case, Kristoph's prison sentence was the best possible alibi, and the fact that only Drew died (and Vera was by then grown up) made Vera a far more viable murder suspect. It worked out far better than his original, crappy plan.

*SPOILER* Case 4-1





If this is the case? Trucy never knew that the evidence was forged.



*Spoiler*

Case 4-1&4-4





Um, you do realise that the Judge is absentminded. It's obvios that in the AA series they don't even charge the witnesses with perjury, which that is what they do almost all the time. But it wouldn't be any fun either without exposing their lies, now would it? =\

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I'm not forgetting 4-1 at all. The thing is, Kristoph's ORIGINAL GRAND MASTER PLAN™ didn't include killing Zak. In fact, without Kristoph getting extremely lucky, and the opportunity falling right into his lap, Zak wouldn't have died at all.



Of course Trucy didn't know the evidence was forged. I'm just saying that hinging an entire plan on the delivery method of an 8-year-old girl is hardly genius. I was simply saying that there were many possible variables... Trucy COULD HAVE acted in many ways that would have ruined the plan, I mean she's just a little girl! She very well could have blown her nose with the page and put it in her pocket. The point is, it was hardly "foolproof" to count on her.



Again, I know that's why he killed them. As I explained at length though, killing the Mishams was hardly a smart way to keep the case low profile. The murder, or attempted murder, of two civilians right after a murder trial in which the father just testified would definitely cause some alarm, and could very well lead back to Kristoph himself as the forge client. In fact, Kristoph himself may have even realized that murder was a bit over the top, since after his initial poison traps failed, he didn't try to kill the Mishams again at all over the entire 7-year span, he just watched them and made sure they stayed contained and quiet. THAT is far smarter than his original plan of just murdering them straight out as soon as possible.



My problem isn't with the judge's absent-mindedness, or even his suborning perjury. It's the fact that in the Zak Gramarye case, after Phoenix was caught with the forged evidence, the verdict hinged on the notion that "only a guilty man would have his lawyer forge evidence." This is a line of reasoning that in reality would actually, ironically enough, be far LESS likely in a judge adjudicated trial than a jury trial, as a judge is supposedly objective and impartial whereas a jury of "common folk" might actually buy into this belief. I know the judge is an idiot, but even his "idiocy" is inconsistent. Sometimes he can be very detached and seems to be objectively following the law, but other times he can buy into totally non-legal rhetoric and motive and use it as "justification" for his rulings. Basically whatever the judge rules until the final verdict is meant to be contrary to what you want him to do and meant to complicate things and lengthen the trial - yes, obviously this is a plot/gameplay device, but even still it can be annoying at times.

You seem to think that Kristoph had the evidence forged in order to get revenge, but this is not the case. They were marked for death even before Kristoph got fired-he had the evidence forged just so he could win.

If they had died, I doubt it would have created that much of a stir. They could just claim Drew poisoned his daughter then himself out of guilt for forging. When Vera collapsed, they tried to claim she poisoned herself out of guilt for murdering her father. And we have no idea when exactly he sent that letter, but it was definitely after the trial.

I believe he couldn't risk taking another attempt at their lives either, or else he would risk the letter he sent being discovered. And if it was, all they would have to do is trace the information back to him. Even proxy information couldn't have prevented them from finding out the truth. And he did make another attempt, by sending Misham another letter sometime after murdering Zak, which Misham would then have to respond to.

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Rhombus, There are several problems with your argument.

First, you seem to be under the misapprehension that everything started with Zak firing Kris, where it didn't.

It started with Zak hiring him -

Zak hires Kristoph as his attorney.
Kris hires 'Drew Misham' to forge evidence for him. He also plans to kill 'Drew' with the poisoned stamp at this point, though it's not entirely clear just when he acts on the plan.
Zak challenges Kris to a game of Poker, and discovers he's of bad character, and fires him.
Kris takes the previously forged evidence, and arranges for it to get to Nick - via Trucy - then tips Klavier off that Nick's going to use forged evidence.

He's already committed the crime, he's just changed the victim from the justice system at large to Nick and Zak.

This was far less dangerous for him than killing them would be. If he'd killed them, there'd be evidence connecting him to the crime that didn't require massive bad luck. By framing Nick (for a crime he'd already committed, himself), he's put the heat somewhere else entirely - there's no reason to investigate him in the first place, because the crime has already been 'solved'. At least until 7 years later when a string of bad luck brings evidence of his connection to light.

And you're assuming obvious connections where they don't exist - Assuming Kris's plan has gone off as he intended, what is there to connect him to anything? A dead forger, who'd already connected Nick to the crime? A piece of mail that would have been in his possession (until he destroyed it), and there would have been no reason to look for in the first place, if the stamp hadn't been saved, then used 7 years after the fact? The possibility that a 8 year old girl might be able to remember a stranger well enough to identify him, realize he's a bad guy, tell someone that he's the bad guy, and be believed when they already believe they've got the criminal? (This is assuming Kris is the one who passed the evidence to Trucy to pass to Nick, rather than a third party, which there is no evidence of.) The only one who suspected him was Nick - the one the police believe did the crime in the first place.

Pretty flimsy, compared to the evidence connecting things to Nick.

It took 7 years of things going wrong - Zak's vanishing act, Vera saving the stamp, because it had the Grameryes on it, Zak's reappearance, Spark showing up early for his interview with Drew, when Drew had no stamp, Vera surviving the attempt to poison her - to gather the evidence to catch him, and a 7-year coming reform in the justice system to nail him on the strength of that evidence.

Zak's reappearance is the real lynch-pin - if he hadn't killed him, one piece of evidence connecting him to the original crime (the killing itself) wouldn't exist, and it would have been difficult, if not impossible, to get the rest to stick without it. Assuming it came to light - if Zak hadn't died, who's to know if the whole Brushel/Misham meeting would have happened in the first place? But if he hadn't killed him, maybe Zak would have brought some other evidence to light.

[Edit - 7, not 10, fixed botched math.]

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Last edited by Kamino Neko on Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Then why the heck didn't he just get Phoenix the "Strictest Punishment"!? Instead, he made sure Phoenix only lost his license, and that caused Phoenix to search relentlessly for the real truth behind what happened... something Gavin would have KNOWN Phoenix would do. (Since he does it Every Single Case and all...



Actually, because Zak didn't SPECIFICALLY get arrested, that part didn't "Work" at all! Zak was "Free", and Kristoph felt his reputation was in danger.



No way. Vera clearly says that Kristoph gave her the item himself, which was when she saw "The Devil". I WILL give you Drew's death being by Mail-Order, however, seeing as how that is said in the game.



I'm going to say you were tired or high when you typed the first two lines, because the problem there is so obvious, for a sec there, I thought I was going to collapse. Anyways, Phoenix would get a prison sentence, if the decision for the "Strictest Punishment" was made... He would also likely be fined, and given a "Permanent Disbarrment", in which he could NEVER be a lawyer in the state of Los Angeles ever again.

This is a reference to the fate of one Jack Thompson... minus the prison sentence, of course.



How could he have predicted "Zak will vanish"!? He thought Drew would have died within 3 days... And it took 7 years. If he was so confident, he wouldn't have watched Drew Misham for all those years... He also watched Phoenix, and Brushel. he left NONE of their fates to chance.



The plan was brilliant. For the Mishams, their "Murder" was a stroke of genius: "Give them poisoned items, and wait for them to use them". Kristoph could NEVER be connected to Drew & Vera Misham unless he confessed to knowing them, or to the evidence fabrication. IF they died, and Kristoph's crime wasn't revealed, the most likely suspect would have been Phoenix Wright, the suspected "Client" of theirs, who requested a forgery, only to have the creators "Betray" him.

I'll get to Zak and Phoenix in a moment.



Drew and Vera are the only two people who could state, under oath, that Kristoph was the one who requested the forgery. I suppose next you're going to state why...



They got in the way of Kristoph's plan. Plain and Simple, Black and White.



If Drew and Vera died, their bodies could take Days, Weeks, even MONTHS to locate! Plenty of time to fabricate an alibi. You gotta realize something, ese: If you don't try to think like Kristoph Gavin, you won't be able to understand ANYTHING about this case. Drew and Vera only had ONE contact with the outside world: The Mailbox. Their windows were boarded up, the door was always locked... They wanted to remain hidden from society. Without a doubt, no one would find them unless it was by sheer chance.

Now, if he killed Zak and Phoenix, he could be linked to both murders in a heartbeat, by his own BROTHER! And yes, Klavier would attack Kristoph in an instant, as Klavier fights for the truth, much like Phoenix, Apollo, and Mia. He wouldn't cover it up.



*Slaps rhombus in the face*

THEY WERE THE BIGGEST THREAT!!! Also, what the hell do you mean "least worthy of the punishment in Kristoph's eyes"!? He killed them, so it's OBVIOUS that he thought they were worthy of punishment!!!



Okay, I'll give you this on the first 1 and a half lines... but that the heck is the rest of your message supposed to mean!? If Trucy tried to testify as to Kristoph being the one who gave the note, she could be easily discredited, for MULTIPLE reasons! She's a kid, for one. She's an accomplice to the vanishing of Zak Gramarye, for two. Finally, her "Father" is Phoenix Wright, and thus, she would be considered as "Protecting Him".



Listen up: Kristoph DISCUSSED it with his brother before the trial. He KNEW Klavier would try to get Zak convicted, so why wouldn't Klavier pursue the diary angle!? Klavier wanted to do two things: Convict Zak, and prove that Phoenix "submitted" illegal evidence.

And since I proved the that Klavier would have presented the diary no matter what, I ALSO don't need to explain how Phoenix's actions were "unable to be predicted"... Unless I HAVE to, but the answer is incredibly obvious.



They were paid for the forgery. They could be seen as accomplices as of right then. (If it isn't obvious, I'm losing my temper at some of the arguments you're using, ese, and me losing my temper isn't something common!)



The Judge has NOTHING to do with your argument there! The legal system SPECIFICALLY STATES that the client has to be considered "Completely Innocent" before they can be declared "Not Guilty" by PW Law!!!

You might call it "Guilty until proven innocent", as opposed to how it's the other way around in reality.

Zak Gramarye couldn't be proven "Completely Innocent" at ANY point of the trial! Even at the end, The Judge was only going to ask the defense and prosecution to investigate the issue further, NOT to end the trial. Zak would be convicted unless Phoenix could prove WITHOUT A DOUBT that Zak wasn't the killer. "Suspicions" are useless in the PW Legal World. Didn't you play 4-3!?



Immediately impossible. They have no reason to check the nail polish for poison. They have no reason to check the nail polish for ANYTHING! Vera Misham is a suspect! S-U-S-P-E-C-T! Why would they check the nail polish bottle for anything? They didin't check it when she was considered a suspect in 4-4, they wouldn't check it then!

Vera Misham is the defendant. As we all know the Prosecution doesn't need to bring up a motive for why they committed murder... Heck, they could always pull a "Machi" and say "She was the daughter of the victim! She had plenty of time to come up with a motive! And unless the Defense can prove that the motive is either Non-Existant, or that someone else had a motive, than Vera would still be the Prime suspect. This is assuming she's even ALIVE!!!

Lets say that Vera Misham sees her fathers' dead body, and gets exceedingly nervous... She bites her polished nails, and dies.

The End.



I already explained how Kristoph wouldn't be suspected. Moving on...



Okay, here we go! FINALLY something good!



Yes... YES... ALMOST THERE...



... If my hand wasn't holding my face in frustration, it would be punching yours out of annoyance. I explained this numerous times now, so lets move on.



Kristoph was entirely unlucky at the fact that it happened 7 years later, when Spark Brushel noticed that envelope being mailed. If Spark wasn't there, no one could possibly know where Drew Misham's "Murder Weapon" went, if it was mailed 7 years ago... It was Kristoph's bad luck that Brushel saw the yellow envelope... If he didn't, then Kristoph wouldn't have been able to be connected to the murder of EITHER Misham. (Don't bother saying that they both have Ariadoney Nail Polish... Klavier Gavin easily disregards the relevance)

His plan was brilliant. He would NEVER be suspected back then. Phoenix would have been, because everything was pointing to Phoenix as being the one who requested the forgery. This kills off 3/4 people who Kristoph was after. And the last thing he needs to do then, is watch Brushel and Trucy until Zak comes out of hiding... then kill him too.

It is, without a doubt, a brilliant plan. Period. And I really hope I don't have to explain all my arguments here in further detail any time soon.

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Um, so just what WAS he trying to do to Phoenix? His plan got Phoenix disbarred and little else. For such a supposed genius, leaving such a loose end around was a major risk, since, like you said, Phoenix always tries his hardest to get the bottom of things. Just killing Phoenix or doing something more severe to him in the first place would have been far smarter.



What are you talking about? Zak was already arrested and on trial for murder. The point was that manipulating Phoenix into presenting the forged evidence would guarantee that Zak would be found guilty. In that sense, his plan worked, since indeed the judge was about to pronounce Zak guilty. I'm saying that Kristoph didn't plan on Zak disappearing.



Mailed, handed... irrelevant. The point is he gives them the poison items before the forged evidence is even used. They're already marked for death before the evidence is even used. And if Vera DOESN'T use the nail polish, and the poison is later found in the bottle she can easily identify who handed it to her.



Um. what? Phoenix didn't go to jail. Kristoph knew how well-respected Phoenix was and knew that disbarment was probably as far as it would go - there was a slim chance Phoenix would ever be put in jail. So Phoenix would never be a lawyer again... so what? That's far less severe of a punishment then killing someone. Phoenix moves on and lives a fairly happy life without being a lawyer anyway. Also, like I said several times, I KNOW KRISTOPH KILLED ZAK, but in his ORIGINAL PLAN he doesn't directly kill Zak at all. Killing Zak happened a whole 7 years later in a situation that was in no way planned.



He couldn't predict Zak would vanish, that's why I said earlier that his original plan for Zak (manipulating the forged evidence to get Zak found guilty) actually worked and was only foiled by Zak's totally unforeseeable vanishing act. The thing is, his machinations for killing the Mishams, who are far more "innocent outsiders" are far more deadly and likely to work/kill them, than his plans for Phoenix and Zak which had many possible snags.



This is the exact reasoning that the game characters and universe display which pisses me off in the first place. It's such a suspension of all reason and logic. It's what I call "Scooby Doo" reasoning. It's basing everything on the assumption that the police and judicial system are completely inept in every possible way... which I suppose is true in the AA universe, but basing logical reasoning on an inherent illogical premise is what's so annoying. There was a ton of evidence pointing to Kristoph. There was no evidence pointing to Phoenix... because Phoenix DIDN'T order the forgery! There's the letter that Kristoph wrote (with the attached stamp), there's the bottle of nail polish, there's a $100,000 money transfer between parties (an amount Phoenix and friends are in no way capable of paying and could be traced by bank records possible to Kristoph). And the most incriminating... Vera actually met with Kristoph!!! Yes, all these avenues aren't investigated in the case, but any real investigation would never overlook ANY of these possible clues and links.




They didn't get in the way of his plan, they were an integral PART of the plan from its very inception, which, as I'm saying, was totally unnecessary. It was a needlessly complex plan that has far too many variables up in the air.



Again, this goes back to my reasoning about complete failure and negligence of all facts, investigation and evidence. There is really plenty of evidence that could ostensibly link Kristoph to the fabrication. Also, the dead Mishams WOULD be found, and it wouldn't take very long. They'd die in their apartment and they'd certainly be found within a month. Even hermits have connections to the real world that can't be ignored. Whether it was the mailman smelling the obvious scent of rotting corpses, or it was a bill collector or landlord coming to collect money, someone would find the bodies. Having to then further fabricate another alibi, or alter/plant evidence beyond that is just ANOTHER complication that shows the original plan is hardly "foolproof."



They were only the biggest threat because he MADE them the biggest threat by involving them in the first place!!! My whole point is that even involving them is needlessly complex, and in any LOGICAL REASONABLE world, killing people, especially a 12-YEAR OLD GIRL is the WORST WAY TO KEEP THINGS QUIET.



She wasn't the daughter of Phoenix Wright at that point, nor had she even aided the escape plan yet. I'm just saying, hinging a plan on giving something to an 8-year-old is just dumb. Any number of things could have gone wrong.



There's is still no way he KNEW anything, it was all based purely on speculation. Yes his manipulations DID work out as planned, but as far as planning goes, there were too many variables OUTSIDE OF KRISTOPH'S CONTROL that could have gone wrong. It's kind of like all the schemes of Bond villains. They contain so many needless complexities that too many things can (and of course always DO) go wrong. The classic Austin Powers parody of how instead of just killing Powers by shooting him in the head, Dr. Evil's plan involves sharks with lasers on their heads. Kristoph's plan is one giant "shark with a laser on its head," needlessly complicated, with much room for failure.



What does that have to do with anything? Also, they're obviously NOT accomplices to the murder. Remember, the murder at hand was of Magnifi Gramarye. The Mishams were in no way linked to the murder of Gramarye. The Mishams didn't get involved in anything till after the trial started - well after Magnifi was dead. Is your point that they're obviously criminals involved in a cover-up? We already knew that! It's implied during Misham's testimony at the Gramarye trial that his testimony about the evidence was a brokered deal (he got "immunity" for the forgery charges by agreeing to testify in court).



That's not what the game states that altered the Zak Gramarye verdict. Refer to my response to Ayanami. The game says that Zak's verdict is swayed by the PREJUDICIAL notion of linking Phoenix's forged evidence-using with the verdict, on the premise of "only a guilty man would have his lawyer use forged evidence."



Again, this is assuming a complete lack of logic and reasoning. When I talk about the plan going down AS PLANNED, this means that Vera and Drew would die probably within a few DAYS of the Magnifi trial. Vera WOULDN'T be a suspect in that case, in fact, she might even die first. Why WOULDN'T they check the nail polish? The only reason they never checked for more poison in the Drew Misham murder is they "stopped checking" since they found the poison residue on the coffee mug which Vera served. This made it look like Vera poisoned the mug. Vera was 19 years old at this point and a far more viable suspect, too. They also had Brushel as a witness to show that Vera served the coffee. If a father and 12-year old girl both died of poisoning, they'd be forced to search the entire apartment, whereupon they'd find the poison bottle, the letter from Kristoph talking about the $100,000, and the traces of the atroquinine from the stamp on the letter.



No you didn't. You explained how a complete suspension of logic and reason could lead the world's most idiotic and inept legal and judicial system to NOT question or investigate any ACTUAL fact or evidence.



Kristoph was entirely LUCKY that it happened 7 years later. It happened to occur when Kristoph was already in jail, giving him a seemingly airtight alibi, at a time when Vera served coffee AND a witness was present to see it happen, to set her up for the crime. The 7-year layoff also made any link to the initial case far less likely, gave Vera time to grow up and be a more viable suspect, and let the game use it's usual "logic" of "well, we have no motive, but he's her daugher so she could have had a reason to be mad at her dad."



There was absolutely NOTHING linking the Mishams to Phoenix other than Phoenix actually using the forged evidence. Any of the actual EVIDENCE at the Misham apartment, not to mention the fact that VERA ACTUALLY MET KRISTOPH IN PERSON points only to Kristoph and not to Phoenix. Sure, Kristoph could have gone and further fabricated, stole, or altered the evidence to implicate Phoenix, but that's MORE needless complexity.

Also, damn, why are you so rude and calling me an idiot/high/etc.? I'm calmly and non-offensively breaking down the scheme and you're personally attacking and insulting me. I could easily be like "omg you called Los Angeles a state! It's a city you retarded idiot nub LOLOLOLOLZ!!!!11" but I won't do that cause it's juvenile and doesn't really add anything to the argument at hand.

(Everyone just ignored this one...)

She might have just been estimating, but I don't really remember the situation in which she said it. Either that or she's forgetful. /shrug

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She got her memory back though, and even before that, she had known it was seven years ago.O_O

Also, rhombus, Wrestlemania, you guys need to chill. It's fine if you want to debate or disagree, but there is no need for threats and name-calling.

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Sorry... But it honestly seemed like he hadn't played the game, from the argument being made... Sorry 'bout that.

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Right, for all that we know he could have left his fingerprints all over the poisoned stamp.



Yes, it's thanks to Vera that the plan backfired. ^_^



The nailpoilsh wasn't mailed. It was a present that Kristoph given to Vera when they have met. >_>



Right, she could have used it as drawing paper or something. =P



Vera's case of poisoning wasn't as much as a lethal dosage. She is lucky to survive!

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He didn't say the contrary :

^^

What boggles me the most is the color of Vera's nailpolish ...
It seems it is described as light pink. However, Kris managed to discover Vera's habit of biting her nails, give her the bottle he had with him AND poison it during his only visit to their studio.
That means he was conveniently carrying a bottle of nailpolish (that had to not be almost empty, of course ^^) of a color he didn't use & a bottle of atroquinin to his rendez-vous.
Of course, it may have just been cheer luck, and he could have come back later if the conditions had not been perfect at his first visit.
But then, it would have increased the chance of been spotted. I mean, there aren't a bunch of unicornesque-dandies that visit this studio. In fact, they don't have many visitors, do they ?

Even visiting only once was pretty dangerous.
Just imagine if the double-death had occurred just a week (or even a day) after his visit. The police investigation would certainly try to determine who last visited them. And who would it be ? Kristoph Gavin !

The bottle of nailpolish could have been broken, the stamp could have been lost, Drew could have used the nailpolish himself (8D) ... whatever.

This is, as rhombus said, a very risky plan. There's so many things that could go wrong ... and that's exactly normal, for a "last case".
Of course he could have done something much more simple, something more "realistic" and "safe". But then, we would not have the opportunity to clarify it, and if we could, it would be boring. ^^

Some flaws were not intended. But it's clear that the complexity of this MASTAH PLAN is necessary to the gameplay.

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If he planned to think of some way to kill her, of course he would be carrying around the poison. And I've always viewed the light pink color as a result of the poison being added.

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The color isn't really that important


I think we can assume Kristoph had been watching the Mishams for a while, otherwise how would he have known that Vera was the real artist? Thus....


He wasn't just convieniently carrying a bottle of nail polish, but had it all planned when he saw, while spying, that Vera was the real artist who had a nail-biting habit.


That's why he was wearing a cloak, wasn't it? (Although I'm not sure why he didn't wear gloves....)


Except it wouldn't. Vera would only die if she wears the nail polish, and she would only wear the nail polish if she went outside. (I don't think this was explicitly stated in the game, but I think it's safe to assume, considering she still had some after 7 years!) Thus Drew would die first. Vera would probably go outside with the nail polish, bite her nails from being nervous, and then die. Now, I'll admit there were still a few ways to trace it back to Kristoph, but not as many as you guys have been saying. Even if they questioned Vera before she died, she wouldn't reveal the identity of that client, plus I don't even think she knew that he was specifically the client for the evidence page. If Kris' plan had gone as intended, the yellow envelope (with Kris' address) and the stamp (with atroquinine and possibly his fingerprints) are going to be delivered to his door for him to dispose of. Yes, that still leaves the bank transfer and any fingerprints on the nail polish bottle, but it's still less, right? Besides, the police might not even test the nail polish bottle, since they would be looking for poison in stuff that is ingested.


1. True. Although Vera did seem pretty protective of the bottle, so I'm sure she took good care of it, but then again, Kris couldn't know she wouldn't done that....
2. But Kris told Drew to mail it back within 3 days. It would be pretty difficult to lose the stamp then...
3. But Drew doesn't necessarily bite his nails.


Of course, everything did go right in the end... (yes, he did get caught, but only because the jurist system replaced the arbitration system, and that could not have been forseen)

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The Police could have been investigating his "Works" and Krisoph found the file on him... Also, we KNOW he was watching them, I mean, Drew Misham felt like he was being watched for a while, remember? Maybe it was earlier than he ACTUALLY thought he was being watched, that he was really being watched...?

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But unless he watched them, he wouldn't have known Vera was the true arist.


Actually... no I just remember Spark Brushel..... (I'm only up to 1-3 of my replay of the series! And my last replay was a while ago!)


Probably.

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My point was that the file would have his address... See what i'm trying to get at now?


Spark said that he felt like he was being watched, and he also said that Drew Misham felt like he was being watched. Phoenix responds to both claims with "Because... he/you felt guilty?" remember?

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