Why do people keep insisting...
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Re: Why do people keep insisting...
I'd say
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Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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Personally, I hope that Phoenix had fallen off a stepladder and bumped his head, which made him dream up the entire AJ thing, and therefore it never happened. But that's just my opinion. If you want to like Apollo, don't let anyone else stop you.
Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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Fey Sage wrote:
but his personality is too much like a generic hero.
But he's gay! *shot, stabbed and slapped*
Sorry for the off-topic random response
. I think that the sudden absence of many of my favourite characters (and the hoboization of the ex-main) is making me biased against the game, but I felt Apollo's personality seemed to be kind of dry. He just seems to be...lacking something.
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Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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2. We wouldn't be so adamant Phoenix is playable again if they hadn't returned him to the 4th game, if they had indeed made it a new series. Then we might have been able to claim it's 'Apollo's' time. But instead they returned Phoenix so it's a follow up to the old arc and not a separate new one. And what they did to Phoenix's life annoyed a lot of people. Hey, Phoenix deserved his good ending in 3-5. We don't want it taken away and then Phoenix just get discarded. There's the sense that the 'new' game undid a lot of what people liked about the previous trilogy and we want resolution.
Also the entire 4th game still revolved around Phoenix, adding even less weight to the argument we're supposed to assume it's 'Apollo's time.'
I don't see why we're supposed to patiently wait around in the hope that Apollo might eventually get some character development, at the expense of a character who already has a compelling characterisation. You can't claim game 4 wasn't at the expense of Phoenix's career and life. Somebody compared it metaphorically to Windows Vista and Windows XP but I think I have a better comparison. It reminds me of Microsoft fanboys swarming around to defend the stellar new product Windows ME. *waits to get lynched by Apollo fanboys* Besides, are the writers really that pathetic that they can't give Apollo character development and have Phoenix playable in the game? Mia has more characterisation than Apollo.
The writers can do anything and if there is enough demand, Phoenix may again take the bar exam. I mean, did anybody really assume they'd give in to fan demand and make an Edgeworth game before was announced?
Pink Princess wrote:
You know how some games have good endings and bad endings? I feel like AJ was the "bad ending" of the whole series.
I think this is the root of the problem people have with game 4, though backing it up with an uncompelling new 'main' character didn't help matters.
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Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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Re: Why do people keep insisting...
Just...leave me alone, alright?
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I for one, love him to bits.Don't worry, all he needs is another game to really show who he truly is and give the supporting characters a chance to develop. The doubters you've seen will begin to dimish, I assure you, just keep the faith, ja?
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Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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Fey Sage wrote:
Apollo promises way more character development than Phoenix, the whole Gramarye family thing, and why he became an attorney, make the chances of Apollo getting an enormous character development.
i don't think that icer really 'forgot' anything, and while i agree that apollo promises more character development at this point in time i agree with icer's points about gs4 feeling like a 'bad end' to the series. it really did feel as though phoenix had been shunted aside (for the worse) in order for apollo to show up, and i really disagree with phoenix' character being used like that.
while i feel that apollo does need time to grow, the fact of the matter is that when the writers decided to focus on phoenix' story in gs4 they fucked apollo out of his chance to get characterisation in that game.
and yes, phoenix had far more personality at the conclusion of his first game than apollo did.
Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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Fey Sage wrote:
Apollo promises way more character development than Phoenix, the whole Gramarye family thing, and why he became an attorney, make the chances of Apollo getting an enormous character development. So why don't give him that chance?
Personally, I don't really care about that. The whole point to me seemed to be the fact that they're siblings, and honestly, weren't the other three games all about family too?
Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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If they retreat to playable Phoenix now, all of that goes to waste, and Capcom probably won't take any more chances with a new playable character for the series again. If the franchise is going to keep going, they have to be willing to move ahead, not just populating the games with cameos and fanservice. The best thing for GS5 would be for Phoenix to play as small a role as possible.
Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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76_trombone wrote:
Maybe they'll do something like make Phoenix do something like Edgeworth did in 3-5
They did it already in 4-4. Besides if they did that agian, let it be with Klavier.
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Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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Fey Sage wrote:
76_trombone wrote:
Maybe they'll do something like make Phoenix do something like Edgeworth did in 3-5
They did it already in 4-4. Besides if they did that agian, let it be with Klavier.
I suppose but maybe they could put him back in the court room? Even as a prosecutor?
Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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Croik wrote:
GS1 was created under the assumption that it would be the only game of its kind. They didn't know at the time if it would be popular enough to warrent a second game, or more. It makes sense that they gave Phoenix the characterization that they did (and then had to throw in more in T&T that didn't jive quite as well as it could have). With AJ they had the opportunity to plot the game as the beginning of a trilogy, and pace themselves. I'm fine not learning every detail of Apollo's life in the first game if it means they were able to set up the cast and the story the way they wanted.
If they retreat to playable Phoenix now, all of that goes to waste, and Capcom probably won't take any more chances with a new playable character for the series again. If the franchise is going to keep going, they have to be willing to move ahead, not just populating the games with cameos and fanservice. The best thing for GS5 would be for Phoenix to play as small a role as possible.
If they retreat to playable Phoenix now, all of that goes to waste, and Capcom probably won't take any more chances with a new playable character for the series again. If the franchise is going to keep going, they have to be willing to move ahead, not just populating the games with cameos and fanservice. The best thing for GS5 would be for Phoenix to play as small a role as possible.
and croik lays waste to everyone elses' arguments
you know i get what you mean croik, and to be honest i agree to an extent that if it's in the best interest of the overall story that they should do what they need to do. however, i just can't shake the feeling that phoenix needs more closure than what we're given in gs4 - he's essentially a shell of what he used to be, and while a lot of fans are okay with that (and the character himself seems to be okay with it) there are a lot of us who aren't. i'll be satisfied with whatever comes out of gs5, but i really want some sort of 'proper' ending to his story than what we have.
or maybe that's just the person still angry over kristoph screwing phoenix over talking
Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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However, after what they did to him to get Apollo in place, he deserves his own (sub) story, NOT "lolz, i r teh realz main character" like they did in GS4, but some sort of side story that you may not even find out except by examining and presenting random things near him over the course of the game. Now I know some of you think he got that and more in GS4, but I felt that was just the entire story of why he's no longer a Lawyer, basically setting the stage for the new guy, and not really exploring this new character out of the Lawyer we've come to know.
Basically my opinion boils down to this: If the game is called Apollo Justice, make it about APOLLO JUSTICE (to be fair the names are added in the English titles, no?), but the Hobo deserves a unrelated small side-story, nothing more, nothing less, don't devote a case to it, but let you ask about it when you see him, or something.
Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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As well, I think they have done the right thing letting somebody take over Phoenix's spotlight, and they will be doing the right thing if they keep Phoenix right where he is, if not further away from the place of important character. And that's because, IMO, his career was pretty much "over" after 3-5 in terms of development, because (At least almost) all of the important cases were tied up into a big, epic ending. Meaning it'd be hard to make something interesting while keeping Phoenix as the main character. And it'd be hard to do something interesting with him making him an attorney again. Basically, it's pointless.
In case of tl;dr: Apollo will be developed further, the holes were left there to be filled later. Also, after 3-5, there wasn't a lot of interesting stuff you could do with Phoenix, and up to this point, making him an attorney and/or protagonist is pointless.
Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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Fey Sage wrote:
Why do people here, keep insisting that Phoenix will be playable again? I don't want to cause a fight, but seriously, the chances of Phoenix being the game's main character again, is almost zero. It's Apollo's time now, not Phoenix's, and before people start complaining that Phoenix has a better personality than Apollo, remember people, Apollo has ONE game, Phoenix has THREE games and appeared in the fourth, of course Phoenix more personality, can't you all wait for more games, to let Apollo have more character development? Besides the chances of Phoenix taking the bar exam again, is, again, almost zero.
I wouldn't say that the chance is zero. They hinted at Phoenix possibly re-taking the bar exam at the end of GS4. Plus, the game right now is called Gyakuten Saiban 5, NOT Apollo Justice 2. They haven't told us anything about who's going to be in the next game, so it could be anyone. Heck, they could decide to scrap the entire cast and start over if they want. *shrugs* Anything could happen, really.
And I agree with everyone else that Phoenix had much more character development by the end of PW:AA than Apollo did at the end of his game.
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Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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Prosecutor Scorpion wrote:
And that's because, IMO, his career was pretty much "over" after 3-5 in terms of development, because (At least almost) all of the important cases were tied up into a big, epic ending. Meaning it'd be hard to make something interesting while keeping Phoenix as the main character. And it'd be hard to do something interesting with him making him an attorney again. Basically, it's pointless.
I completely agree. When Takumi made T&T, that was supposed to be the end of Phoenix's story. If you believe the rumors and hints on the dev blogs and such, originally they wanted GS4 to be Phoenix-free but Capcom shot them down. Phoenix had to be in it somehow, so the writers took him in the only direction that made sense: out of the courtroom.
What can Phoenix do as a lawyer that he hasn't done already? He saved Maya, he saved his ex-girlfriend, he proved himself to his mentor, he defeated Edgeworth and Franziska and Godot and everything else the prosecutor's office could throw at him. You almost couldn't create a new case that would be more meaningful to him and his character than what he's already been through. And when it gets to that point, he really ought to be out of the limelight.
Quote:
he's essentially a shell of what he used to be, and while a lot of fans are okay with that (and the character himself seems to be okay with it) there are a lot of us who aren't. i'll be satisfied with whatever comes out of gs5, but i really want some sort of 'proper' ending to his story than what we have.
I know what you mean, but Phoenix himself admitted that he didn't become a lawyer because he enjoyed court or had a respect for the system: he was doing it to help people. Fans have been saying for a long time that he almost makes a better detective than he does a lawyer.. "The Wright & Co. Detective Agency" would be a much better match for him!
Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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What I did mind is that Apollo got no face time next to him.
4-4 was essentially the direct sequel to 3-5. THAT made me a little mad.
I love AJAA, but in the next one, I want to see Apollo take the lead.
People who want Phoenix to reappear and be the main lawyer are essentially just whining and bitchin about how they want a sequel to T&T, with lots of that pretty-boy Edgeworth and other bullshit. Because most of them can't stand a little bit of change in a series that largely remains under the same tested formula.
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icer wrote:
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Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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I'm more intrigued with Apollo's and the Gavins' past and maybe a bit on Trucy's personality (because I hate thinking of her as a more sensitive and mature version of Regina Berry when it comes to tragedies even though she's my favourite defense counsel/assistant in GS) Like hey now, we haven't heard why Apollo really became a lawyer, did we? I would seriously lawl if it was just because of fanboyism
And AJ never struck me as a so-called "bad ending", it's more like "to be continued" in a less infuriating way than The Golden Compass movie seriously wtf? They're still in the middle of the Artic or whatever they call it!
If anyone wants to compare AJ to PW:AA, I would say story-wise AJ did a better job. In PW:AA you feel like you're stumbling around and getting caught up in events whereas in AJ, you're still stumbling around and getting caught up in events but you would feel there is something to it, you just need to figure out what it is. So in other words PW:AA is like "so what now?" and AJ is like "I just need to figure it out!"
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Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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All right, I like the characters too, but honestly, the MAIN character has never been the one I sympathized most with; Apollo or Phoenix. I just wanna play a game with a murder, that I have to solve, and fight some crazy witnesses with evidence and such. That's it. Whether it's Apollo, Phoenix, Mia, Edgeworth, or whoever: I don't care.
In terms of progression of the games therefore, it simply makes no sense to go back to Phoenix. I don't think of who I "prefer" or who was "better developed". I think of where the franchise as a whole is going. If Apollo had been some random lawyer with no connection to Phoenix, I'd have been just as satisfied. So by this reasoning, I hope they go on with Apollo. There's no REASON to go back to Phoenix so they may as well proceed and continue what they started.
Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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The way I see it, I want Phoenix to be a playable character simply because Capcom did such a good job at making him a sympathetic character. Over the time he's been in play, I've come to like him, and don't want to see him up and vanish. I also didn't like seeing him essentially dicked over the way he was in GS4, and want that to be fixed.
However, before people jump on me here, I DON'T want Phoenix to be the main character. He's had his story arc, and it's Apollo's time. Of the four or five cases in each game, Case 1 is the least connected to the plot, and as such, can be tossed to Phoenix to placate those fans who want to see him defending again. After that case, simply move him out of the storyline; my personal favorite plan is to have "an old friend" call him away to help with the establishing of the Jurist System in Germany. That moves him completely out of the limelight, and leaves things on a more positive note than having the character we've grown to like driven to hobo status, forging evidence and playing a crummy piano in an ice-cold soup joint.
From there, GS5 could be the GS4 we should have gotten: no Phoenix, Apollo developed enough that he can have time to shine, new prosecutor (most likely), and the opportunity to build the same rapport we got to build with Phoenix.
I don't think one throwaway tutorial case is too much to ask to enable a good chunk of the fan base to finally see the ending they really want.
Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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momotarou wrote:
And AJ never struck me as a so-called "bad ending", it's more like "to be continued" in a less infuriating way than The Golden Compass movie seriously wtf? They're still in the middle of the Artic or whatever they call it!
Oh God, I didn't even know that was a freaking trilogy until I was in the theater watching the credits roll going "WTF?!" and the guy next to me was all "yeah, dude, it's a trilogy". Yay for not reading the books first!
Anyway, what I'm hoping for is that Franziska was Klavier's mentor in Germany, and she no longer cares about her win record or anything and taught him to do the same. That would give epic character development to Fran, who we all know needs it.
But seriously, if GS5 is anything like GS4, I might not even buy it...
Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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Pink Princess wrote:
But seriously, if GS5 is anything like GS4, I might not even buy it...
Agreed. By the way, what's the Japanese name for AJ? Is is really Gyakuten Saiban 4?
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Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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Dilbert719 wrote:
What I find odd about this is that the original intent of this thread was to escape the AJ-hate in the other thread, and this one seems to be on track to becoming the PW-hate thread. That's not necessarily something beneficial, from my perspective, but then again, my perspective means just this side of nothing.
The way I see it, I want Phoenix to be a playable character simply because Capcom did such a good job at making him a sympathetic character. Over the time he's been in play, I've come to like him, and don't want to see him up and vanish. I also didn't like seeing him essentially dicked over the way he was in GS4, and want that to be fixed.
However, before people jump on me here, I DON'T want Phoenix to be the main character. He's had his story arc, and it's Apollo's time. Of the four or five cases in each game, Case 1 is the least connected to the plot, and as such, can be tossed to Phoenix to placate those fans who want to see him defending again. After that case, simply move him out of the storyline; my personal favorite plan is to have "an old friend" call him away to help with the establishing of the Jurist System in Germany. That moves him completely out of the limelight, and leaves things on a more positive note than having the character we've grown to like driven to hobo status, forging evidence and playing a crummy piano in an ice-cold soup joint.
From there, GS5 could be the GS4 we should have gotten: no Phoenix, Apollo developed enough that he can have time to shine, new prosecutor (most likely), and the opportunity to build the same rapport we got to build with Phoenix.
I don't think one throwaway tutorial case is too much to ask to enable a good chunk of the fan base to finally see the ending they really want.
This is basically an exact sum up of how I feel. I want to see a "proper" ending to Phoenix's predicament (preferably him becoming a lawyer again) and then perhaps vanishing for some important meeting somewhere else so that Apollo can take the spotlight again. It's not the gameplay I'm concerned about; it's the fact that Phoenix got screwed over so badly that I want to see Phoenix at least one more time, as a lawyer, with his life turned back around, BEFORE we get into the whole "Solo-Apollo" part of the series. The way I see it, I want Phoenix to be a playable character simply because Capcom did such a good job at making him a sympathetic character. Over the time he's been in play, I've come to like him, and don't want to see him up and vanish. I also didn't like seeing him essentially dicked over the way he was in GS4, and want that to be fixed.
However, before people jump on me here, I DON'T want Phoenix to be the main character. He's had his story arc, and it's Apollo's time. Of the four or five cases in each game, Case 1 is the least connected to the plot, and as such, can be tossed to Phoenix to placate those fans who want to see him defending again. After that case, simply move him out of the storyline; my personal favorite plan is to have "an old friend" call him away to help with the establishing of the Jurist System in Germany. That moves him completely out of the limelight, and leaves things on a more positive note than having the character we've grown to like driven to hobo status, forging evidence and playing a crummy piano in an ice-cold soup joint.
From there, GS5 could be the GS4 we should have gotten: no Phoenix, Apollo developed enough that he can have time to shine, new prosecutor (most likely), and the opportunity to build the same rapport we got to build with Phoenix.
I don't think one throwaway tutorial case is too much to ask to enable a good chunk of the fan base to finally see the ending they really want.
However, we do have to realize that Trucy is Phoenix's daughter, and as long as Trucy is Apollo's assistant, Phoenix won't be far behind.
Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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Pink Princess wrote:
Anyway, what I'm hoping for is that Franziska was Klavier's mentor in Germany, and she no longer cares about her win record or anything and taught him to do the same. That would give epic character development to Fran, who we all know needs it.
She's getting plenty in GK!
Fey Sage wrote:
76_trombone wrote:
Maybe they'll do something like make Phoenix do something like Edgeworth did in 3-5
They did it already in 4-4. Besides if they did that agian, let it be with Klavier.
No.
icer wrote:
Also the entire 4th game still revolved around Phoenix, adding even less weight to the argument we're supposed to assume it's 'Apollo's time.'
He's the main character. If that's not weight enough, then I don't know what is.
thehypnoticllama wrote:
Pink Princess wrote:
But seriously, if GS5 is anything like GS4, I might not even buy it...
Agreed. By the way, what's the Japanese name for AJ? Is is really Gyakuten Saiban 4?
Yes.
momotarou wrote:
seriously wtf? They're still in the middle of the Artic or whatever they call it!
Yeah, half the ending, the good part, was cut off.
Oh my god, I think this has turned into another Apollo hate thread.
What the hell is wrong with him? Phoenix just seemed kind of passive, while Apollo had his whole chords of steel thing. 
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Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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Dilbert719 wrote:
What I find odd about this is that the original intent of this thread was to escape the AJ-hate in the other thread, and this one seems to be on track to becoming the PW-hate thread. That's not necessarily something beneficial, from my perspective, but then again, my perspective means just this side of nothing.
I don't see anyone "hating" on Phoenix, there's just a portion of fandom that does not want to see him as the main character or even as a lawyer anymore. He had his run, and now it's time for someone new. I'd like to see him steadily employed (for the sake of him and Trucy and upholding some kind of lifestyle) but I don't think he could ever go back to being a lawyer. Not only would he never be able to fully escape suspicion for the forgery (given the nature of his "control" of the system in 4-4, I wouldn't be surprised if every other attorney in the city still believed he was guilty, even if he got his badge back), but I don't think Phoenix himself would want that. If you really consider him to be a man of integrity, I can't see him taking up his badge again after the forging he did in 4-1. It betrayed everything being a lawyer stands for, not to mention the lawyer/client trust that was the cornerstone of his practice.
I mean, I can't imagine Phoenix wallowing in self pity or anything like that, but I think at the point in which he made Apollo present that ace, he was giving up his right to be a lawyer again. He sacrificed his integrity to get Kristoph. He *chose* the role of crime-solver rather than attorney, and in all honesty I think it's the better role for him anyway.
Just for fun, let's take a look at how Phoenix was described by Suekane way back in the day (Suekane being the head designer from the first game, who helped make Phoenix originally). This is what she said about Phoenix's daily routine when he wasn't working on a case:
[quote=Suekane]Daily routine: He does nothing.
He spaces out all morning, eats lunch in the afternoon, watches TV, in the evening he eats dinner, watches more TV, takes a bath and goes to sleep. But if someone invites him out, he'll go.[/quote]
This is the life Phoenix gets to look forward to by becoming a laywer again.
Don't get me wrong, I love Phoenix. But I loved him even more after AJ because it made him a little less generic as a hero. Saying that he won't be "fixed" until he's a lawyer again is like saying he wasted the last 7 years of his life, and in a way that's more cruel than saying he should just continue to improve his current life.
Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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Also, main characters aside, I even thought the witnesses had more character in the first game than in AJ. They seemed kind of dry in AJ. I remember the first time I played an Ace Attorney game was when the first one was released here for the DS, and I remember falling in love with even the witnesses. AJ felt like a new experience for me too, but I didn't feel the same way as I did with Phoenix's first game. To be honest, I probably wouldn't have even cared if it wasn't part of the same series I love so much. But at the same time, I wish it WASN'T part of the same series. I think it would have done better as a spin-off.
Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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Croik wrote:
If they retreat to playable Phoenix now, all of that goes to waste, and Capcom probably won't take any more chances with a new playable character for the series again. ...
The best thing for GS5 would be for Phoenix to play as small a role as possible.
The best thing for GS5 would be for Phoenix to play as small a role as possible.
But they have a new playable character already!
*drumroll*
...Edgeworth!
I don't think it's going to 'waste' because with all the delays over GS5, I'm pretty sure they haven't planned out some spectacular overencompassing plot for the arc or have any future characterisation aspirations for Apollo when they finished writing game 4.
People don't want Phoenix for fanservice, they want character resolution. Possibly the best thing for GS4 would have been to have Phoenix play as small a role as possible, but doing what they did with him in game 4, they can't just discard his character now. Though of course, many types of interaction with Apollo would be at the expense of both characters. So they should have Phoenix in a spin-off or his own unrelated case, maybe feeding in to a case of Apollo's/vice versa. I have great trouble seeing him in a Mia-esque mentor role, unless they change his character again.
Croik wrote:
He had his run, and now it's time for someone new. I can't see him taking up his badge again after the forging he did in 4-1.
He had his 'run', and instead of retiring him, the writers decided to destoy his career and throw his life in turmoil. Yeah, that's the resolution we all wanted for his trilogy, isn't it.. Since he's really the main character of game 4 (everything revolves around him, Apollo is merely the protagonist) the writers decided to extend his 'run' into another direction, and this kind of argument would only be valid if Phoenix had indeed been left behind in his original trilogy or had a minor part in game 4 strongly resembling his situation in game 3 where he's still a lawyer.
Well, okay, I'm probably not alone in admitting it was something of an ironic betrayal of his character by the writers, which seemed to be for no good reason other than 'we need Phoenix in the game because we were told to but we decided for whatever reason he can't be a lawyer!'
I don't see that he was giving up his right to ever be a lawyer again in 4-1, however I think at that point he felt he would never have the opportunity to do so and was working to that mindset. Once his name is cleared in 4-4 and it actually becomes an option again, his mindset would be different.
DramaticaXIV2 wrote:
He's the main character. If that's not weight enough, then I don't know what is.
We still don't know who the main playable character for GS5 is, the director won't even commit to it being Apollo.
Pink Princess wrote:
The way I see it is, if they're going to make a drastic change like getting rid of the main character for a new guy, shouldn't they make the new guy a little more, I dunno... LIKABLE? But at the same time, I wish it WASN'T part of the same series. I think it would have done better as a spin-off.
The problem was, they didn't get rid of the old character to have the new guy. They merely got rid of his career and life to do so.
The main problem of GS4 is that it is really NOT a 'new' series or even a separate arc.
Anyway, a lot of people agree that Phoenix's character needs better resolution than what we got in GS4. That game, to use the metaphor, merely opened a whole new can of worms and failed to close it again.
He may be happier as a 'detective' but there's no sign that he'll get the opportunity to play that role in future or regain the empowerment to help people, I don't think he even still had that job at the Borscht Bowl by 4-2 and he hated playing the piano anyway - evidenced by his failure to practice, only playing one song ("That's usually all they want"), and his plea to Zak to make the piano 'disappear', there's no sign the 'job' with the jurist system is ongoing, and the characters he associated with in the previous arc have for plot and writing purposes, 'disappeared.' Throughout game 4, he's obviously frustrated by the lack of empowerment he has due to not being a lawyer and so lacking the capacity to convict Kristoph himself, hence his usage of Apollo as a pawn to effect what he can't.
Overall, his post- 4-4 situation is far worse than anything in the ending or even beginning in games 1,2 and 3. Even Larry got a better ending.
LOL parody sig trend. Phoenix/Maya Day is Sept 5!
[ Read my fanfics! =) | Phoenix/Maya 'Evidence' List ]
Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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- Phoenix Avenges his Mentor
- What happened to Maya's Mom is answered
- Larry Butz makes a cameo
- You get to play as Edgeworth
- Phoenix risks his life for Maya
- Franny gets to act as Defense Aid
- Phoenix becomes a Defense GOD
- SUPER OBJECTION
- Maya and Pearl go on to lead the Kurain people
My goodness, it doesn't get more proper then that for an ending.
If anything GS4 was a new beginning for Phoenix and his crew. You get to speculate what happened to them in 7 years. And now people want an epic and/or proper ending on top of what was already ended epicly and/or properly?
Lets face it. Phoenix is a VERY boring character. Think about it. When has Phoenix done anything to move the game forward of his own actions?
GS3-1: I'm on trial!
GS1-1: Butz is in trouble. Gotta save my buddie.
GS1-2: I'M in trouble. Gotta save my hide. Also Maya's in trouble, but I don't know her yet.
GS1-3: Maya's a fan girl. Gotta save her show or else.
GS1-4: Edgeworth's in trouble. Gotta repay him.
GS1-5: Ema's hiring me without me caring.
GS2-2: Maya's in trouble. Again.
GS2-1: Maggie's my number 1 fan, maybe my only fan. Gotta save my fandom.
GS2-3: Maya's a fan girl. Gotta save her show or else.
GS2-4: Maya's in trouble. Again again.
GS3-2: Hey! I'm actually doing lawyerly work for once! Except, I didn't choose this one. The Wife of the suspect did.
GS3-3: I've got a dopple ganger? Must stop!
GS3-5: Maya's in trouble, AGAIN.
GS4-1: I'm on trial, again.
What have we learned from this?
Of the 13 cases Phoenix appears in...
[4] Maya's in Trouble
[4] Cases where a friend who is NOT Maya is on trial. (Maggie, Butz, Edgeworth)
[2] Maya picks the case for Phoenix
[2] Clients force Phoenix to defend (Ema, Desire Delite)
[3] Phoenix is on Trial for Murder
Phoenix only really takes cases when someone he knows needs defending, including but not limited to himself. Outside of that, people like Maya, Ema, and Desire need to force him to take the case.
Lets look at Apollo.
4-1: Agrees to take a case for a person he's never heard of. Convicts his Mentor of murder.
4-2: After a period of no employment, goes to Wright Talent Agency and pursues 3 unrelated events. He could drop it all at any time. But continues.
4-3: Is sorta thrown into events. Doesn't know anyone besides the prosecutor involved in the case.
4-4: Phoenix rapes the case, and consequently the game.
Apollo is a much more interesting character. He's never actually in control over his own situations, but still persists and selflessly completes each task that's assigned to him. With Phoenix, if he doesn't know you, he's not going to want to defend you, or have anything to deal with you.
That's what I think makes Phoenix a very dull character. He's sooooo, safe. He doesn't do anything new unless new takes him by his collar and thrusts him against the wall and gives him a wet willy. Apollo also needs some convincing, but he's not nearly as BAD as Phoenix.
Now, Phoenix as a hobo fascinates me. At least, when he's not stealing the carpet out from under Apollo. He's manipulative, selfish, keeps his cards to himself. Gasp! Phoenix developed a personality in these 7 years of silence. Hobohodo is a much more interesting character then Phoenix. You almost want to know what makes him tick.
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Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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icer wrote:
Croik wrote:
If they retreat to playable Phoenix now, all of that goes to waste, and Capcom probably won't take any more chances with a new playable character for the series again. ...
The best thing for GS5 would be for Phoenix to play as small a role as possible.
The best thing for GS5 would be for Phoenix to play as small a role as possible.
Quote:
But they have a new playable character already!
*drumroll*
...Edgeworth!
I don't think it's going to 'waste' because with all the delays over GS5, I'm pretty sure they haven't planned out some spectacular overencompassing plot for the arc or have any future characterisation aspirations for Apollo when they finished writing game 4.
People don't want Phoenix for fanservice, they want character resolution. Possibly the best thing for GS4 would have been to have Phoenix play as small a role as possible, but doing what they did with him in game 4, they can't just discard his character now. Though of course, many types of interaction with Apollo would be at the expense of both characters. So they should have Phoenix in a spin-off or his own unrelated case, maybe feeding in to a case of Apollo's/vice versa. I have great trouble seeing him in a Mia-esque mentor role, unless they change his character again.
*drumroll*
...Edgeworth!
I don't think it's going to 'waste' because with all the delays over GS5, I'm pretty sure they haven't planned out some spectacular overencompassing plot for the arc or have any future characterisation aspirations for Apollo when they finished writing game 4.
People don't want Phoenix for fanservice, they want character resolution. Possibly the best thing for GS4 would have been to have Phoenix play as small a role as possible, but doing what they did with him in game 4, they can't just discard his character now. Though of course, many types of interaction with Apollo would be at the expense of both characters. So they should have Phoenix in a spin-off or his own unrelated case, maybe feeding in to a case of Apollo's/vice versa. I have great trouble seeing him in a Mia-esque mentor role, unless they change his character again.
They won't change his character again. I'm sure of it. Also we already played as Edgeworth even before Apollo came, he hardly a new playble character.
Croik wrote:
He had his run, and now it's time for someone new. I can't see him taking up his badge again after the forging he did in 4-1.
Quote:
He had his 'run', and instead of retiring him, the writers decided to destoy his career and throw his life in turmoil. Yeah, that's the resolution we all wanted for his trilogy, isn't it.. Since he's really the main character of game 4 (everything revolves around him, Apollo is merely the protagonist) the writers decided to extend his 'run' into another direction, and this kind of argument would only be valid if Phoenix had indeed been left behind in his original trilogy or had a minor part in game 4 strongly resembling his situation in game 3 where he's still a lawyer.
Well, okay, I'm probably not alone in admitting it was something of an ironic betrayal of his character by the writers, which seemed to be for no good reason other than 'we need Phoenix in the game because we were told to but we decided for whatever reason he can't be a lawyer!'
I don't see that he was giving up his right to ever be a lawyer again in 4-1, however I think at that point he felt he would never have the opportunity to do so and was working to that mindset. Once his name is cleared in 4-4 and it actually becomes an option again, his mindset would be different.
Well, okay, I'm probably not alone in admitting it was something of an ironic betrayal of his character by the writers, which seemed to be for no good reason other than 'we need Phoenix in the game because we were told to but we decided for whatever reason he can't be a lawyer!'
I don't see that he was giving up his right to ever be a lawyer again in 4-1, however I think at that point he felt he would never have the opportunity to do so and was working to that mindset. Once his name is cleared in 4-4 and it actually becomes an option again, his mindset would be different.
He used that card, with the intention of getting Kristoph later (in other words, in 4-4), so he already was set into clearing his name, by that time. Besides he did the same thing he was falsely accused seven years before, and Phoenix has enough pride in his own sense of justice, so I think he wouldn't dare take the bar exam again, it would against in what he believes.
DramaticaXIV2 wrote:
He's the main character. If that's not weight enough, then I don't know what is.
Quote:
We still don't know who the main playable character for GS5 is, the director won't even commit to it being Apollo.
And what would happen to Apollo then? Would he loose his badge as well, and go hobo? I don't think the writers are that dumb.
Pink Princess wrote:
The way I see it is, if they're going to make a drastic change like getting rid of the main character for a new guy, shouldn't they make the new guy a little more, I dunno... LIKABLE? But at the same time, I wish it WASN'T part of the same series. I think it would have done better as a spin-off.
Quote:
The problem was, they didn't get rid of the old character to have the new guy. They merely got rid of his career and life to do so.
The main problem of GS4 is that it is really NOT a 'new' series or even a separate arc.
Anyway, a lot of people agree that Phoenix's character needs better resolution than what we got in GS4. That game, to use the metaphor, merely opened a whole new can of worms and failed to close it again.
He may be happier as a 'detective' but there's no sign that he'll get the opportunity to play that role in future or regain the empowerment to help people, I don't think he even still had that job at the Borscht Bowl by 4-2 and he hated playing the piano anyway - evidenced by his failure to practice, only playing one song ("That's usually all they want"), and his plea to Zak to make the piano 'disappear', there's no sign the 'job' with the jurist system is ongoing, and the characters he associated with in the previous arc have for plot and writing purposes, 'disappeared.' Throughout game 4, he's obviously frustrated by the lack of empowerment he has due to not being a lawyer and so lacking the capacity to convict Kristoph himself, hence his usage of Apollo as a pawn to effect what he can't.
Overall, his post- 4-4 situation is far worse than anything in the ending or even beginning in games 1,2 and 3. Even Larry got a better ending.
The main problem of GS4 is that it is really NOT a 'new' series or even a separate arc.
Anyway, a lot of people agree that Phoenix's character needs better resolution than what we got in GS4. That game, to use the metaphor, merely opened a whole new can of worms and failed to close it again.
He may be happier as a 'detective' but there's no sign that he'll get the opportunity to play that role in future or regain the empowerment to help people, I don't think he even still had that job at the Borscht Bowl by 4-2 and he hated playing the piano anyway - evidenced by his failure to practice, only playing one song ("That's usually all they want"), and his plea to Zak to make the piano 'disappear', there's no sign the 'job' with the jurist system is ongoing, and the characters he associated with in the previous arc have for plot and writing purposes, 'disappeared.' Throughout game 4, he's obviously frustrated by the lack of empowerment he has due to not being a lawyer and so lacking the capacity to convict Kristoph himself, hence his usage of Apollo as a pawn to effect what he can't.
Overall, his post- 4-4 situation is far worse than anything in the ending or even beginning in games 1,2 and 3. Even Larry got a better ending.
The characters didn't disappear, they just went on with their lives, as much as I would love to see the PW era characters back, I don't think every single of them would appear. One proof that they still "exist" is Larry's cameo on Sunshine Coliseum. And I'm pretty sure the Jurist System job is ongoing, he worked very hard for that, he wouldn't leave it, just like that.
Please read my fic, trust me you will like it, if you read until the latest chapter. Forgive my bad grammar, I'm brazilian, so it may hard to read in the beginning, but it get better in later chapters.
Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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Wooster wrote:
comparison of Nick's cases v Pollys
Okay, let's look at Apollo in the same light you looked at Phoenix.
4-1 The client, the former GOD of defense, as you put it, asks for him specificly, his boss would have made him.
4-2 He becomes so broke that he becomes willing to do anything, he gets the job becasue of some stupid flies trucy put out, and the unrealted things he is forced to do because he's broke, happen to connect.
4-3 He is forced to go to a rock concert, where a murder happens to take place. He gets the job because he's there.
4-4 Phoenix: "O hai! U r defendenting this client!"
The closest Apollo ever comes to going out and getting a job of his own free will is when he goes to the talent agency, because he's so broke he's out of options, and even then it's because Trucy's fliers look SO unprofessional that he hired because it seeems like he'll get a guilty for sure.
All of Apollo's cases have been, "Right place, right time" because of something one of the Wrights did. Phoenix at least had motivations for all the times he helped himself or his friends, Apollo is just like "CASE! I'll take it!"
There is more to it then that, but there is also more to Nicks cases then how you put it. Except for the Maya thing, she needed to stop getting in trouble.
Also as defense attorneys they both are reactionary forces until a crime happens, then they have to get hired. Yes Nick COULD have watched the news for random cases, and whenever someone got arrested run down there to try to get the job, but as he has no investment in that case beyond his normal "My client is innocent" thing, it wouldn't be as interesting. Also, Nick needs to be convinced that his client is innocent to work with them, in most cases when it isn't someone he already trusts, someone else gives him that nudge so he can be in that believe in this client.
Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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DarknessLord wrote:
Wooster wrote:
comparison of Nick's cases v Pollys
Okay, let's look at Apollo in the same light you looked at Phoenix.
4-1 The client, the former GOD of defense, as you put it, asks for him specificly, his boss would have made him.
4-2 He becomes so broke that he becomes willing to do anything, he gets the job becasue of some stupid flies trucy put out, and the unrealted things he is forced to do because he's broke, happen to connect.
4-3 He is forced to go to a rock concert, where a murder happens to take place. He gets the job because he's there.
And that's exactly my point. Phoenix won't take a case unless he's secure in himself that the client is beyond innocent and he's in a situation where there are familiar faces. In general, that's great for a person's character. But it's slowly tearing the GS game's apart. The Ace Attorney games are mystery titles. You can't have a great mystery without a strong level of the unknown. Look at GS3 specifically. That game has the least new characters of any game in the published series. And with any returning character in GS2 or GS3 none of them played a role that made the plot more complicated. Exception going to Larry in GS3. In all the titles it has been new faces that add to the mystery aspect of the games. If you bring Phoenix back into a controlling role, you're demanding all those other cameos that really bog the game down. Adrian Andrews was an amazingly complex character in GS2, when she returned for her cameo in GS3, she was flat, and given a very uninteresting role.
Quote:
4-4 Phoenix: "O hai! U r defendenting this client!"
Haha! For great truth!Quote:
The closest Apollo ever comes to going out and getting a job of his own free will is when he goes to the talent agency, because he's so broke he's out of options, and even then it's because Trucy's fliers look SO unprofessional that he hired because it seeems like he'll get a guilty for sure.
YES YES! This is exactly what the game needs! When have you seen Phoenix broken and looking for his future? And Phoenix gets cases because he's so successful again, it's a safety barrier. The client gets Phoenix because the client knows he/she is innocent. And therefore Phoenix is assured that his defendant is innocent because he's asked for specifically. Apollo is given wild cards and he has to play with them. Phoenix gets to look through the whole deck and has Kings and Aces handed to him.
Quote:
All of Apollo's cases have been, "Right place, right time" because of something one of the Wrights did. Phoenix at least had motivations for all the times he helped himself or his friends, Apollo is just like "CASE! I'll take it!"
Perhaps you are right in that Apollo could use to be self motivated. But Phoenix for sure is not going to become more independent were he to gain control of the wheel.
Quote:
There is more to it then that, but there is also more to Nicks cases then how you put it. Except for the Maya thing, she needed to stop getting in trouble.
Granted, and I really like how you formed your arguments. Point and Counter Point, and you defend your points. I really don't agree with any of the reasons submitted thus far why Phoenix should take control over 'another' game, but I can respect why people would want to see him return.
I just don't think it makes for very good writing.Quote:
Also as defense attorneys they both are reactionary forces until a crime happens, then they have to get hired. Yes Nick COULD have watched the news for random cases, and whenever someone got arrested run down there to try to get the job, but as he has no investment in that case beyond his normal "My client is innocent" thing, it wouldn't be as interesting. Also, Nick needs to be convinced that his client is innocent to work with them, in most cases when it isn't someone he already trusts, someone else gives him that nudge so he can be in that believe in this client.
Actually, I have to respectfully disagree with you. Some of my Favorite Cases, GS1-4, GS1-5, GS2-4, GS4-3. What made those cases fascinating was that your client was really suspicious, and the main character thought so as well. You can't tell me you weren't stunned when you saw Edgeworth with the Gun in the prologue to GS1-4. Or Lana stabbing Goodman in 1-5. The role of a great Defense attorney is that to protect those who everyone believes is guilty. This role is exemplified when the Defense shares the same thoughts as those that arrested him/her. Over the course of the story you gain more evidence that allows you to look at it in a different light. That's the slogan of the series, the turnabout. If everything is handed in a safe manner, there's no sudden twist, and that's what makes people buy these titles.
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Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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Let's go over your little "summaries" of Phoenix's cases shall we?
GS3-1: I'm on trial!
I've been falsely accussed for murdering a man who dissed my loving girlfriend who I would do anything for, I even go so far as to eat the evidence that would had incriminated her. Then in the end I find out she was just using me...
GS1-1: Butz is in trouble. Gotta save my buddie.
I'm out to save my best friend since childhood who was part of the reason I became an attorney from murder charges.
GS1-2: I'M in trouble. Gotta save my hide. Also Maya's in trouble, but I don't know her yet.
My mentor has been murdered and her sister has been accused. She has no one else to turn to, so despite my experience I'll save her!
GS1-3: Maya's a fan girl. Gotta save her show or else.
An innocent man has been arrested, who Maya believes in and can tell wouldn't hurt a fly, I'LL TAKE THE CASE!
GS1-4: Edgeworth's in trouble. Gotta repay him.
My old friend who changed my life that day he saved me in school is in trouble, and I'm going to not save him.
GS1-5: Ema's hiring me without me caring.
This weird girl and her sister remind me of Mia and Maya, and I'm positive her sister didn't do the crime, I'm going to help her.
GS2-2: Maya's in trouble. Again.
My trusted legal assistant and friend is in trouble.
GS2-1: Maggie's my number 1 fan, maybe my only fan. Gotta save my fandom.
This poor girl was shunned by all the other attornies she tried to hire, and has no one to turn to, I'll save her!
GS2-3: Maya's a fan girl. Gotta save her show or else.
Maya seems to believe this man didn't commit the crime. I believe her so I'll believe him as well.
GS2-4: Maya's in trouble. Again again.
Maya's been kidnapped by an assassin, and if I don't get this guy not guilty she'll die, but wait, could he really be guilty? What should I do, uphold justice or save Maya?!
GS3-2: Hey! I'm actually doing lawyerly work for once! Except, I didn't choose this one. The Wife of the suspect did.
Someone has stolen Maya's family urn, and we have to find it. Oh, and we've been hired have to help this poor sap who was charged with stealing it!
GS3-3: I've got a dopple ganger? Must stop!
My old friend Maggey is in trouble, I have to help her! Hm, so some guy was impersonating me, I have to prove this to save her!
GS3-5: Maya's in trouble, AGAIN.
My closest friend is trapped in an isolated place and a woman I feel a strange bond to is in trouble, I have to help them both.
GS4-1: I'm on trial, again.
Kristoph has killed that Shadi guy, and is trying to put the blame on me and that card dealer girl. I'm not going to let him get away with it.
Quote:
Phoenix only really takes cases when someone he knows needs defending, including but not limited to himself. Outside of that, people like Maya, Ema, and Desire need to force him to take the case.
Well that's just how his character works. He's pretty apathetic towards most things except for his friends, which he is fiercely passionate about. Also, how do we even know for a fact these are his only cases? For all we know he could be taking other cases in between these.
Now let's go over the Apollo summaries.
4-1: Agrees to take a case for a person he's never heard of. Convicts his Mentor of murder.
Told by his teacher to take a case for some guy, then throws out evidence whenever Kristoph or Phoenix tell him to.
4-2: After a period of no employment, goes to Wright Talent Agency and pursues 3 unrelated events. He could drop it all at any time. But continues.
Gets employeed by Phoenix at his office and gets told to go on several errands, as it's his job.
4-3: Is sorta thrown into events. Doesn't know anyone besides the prosecutor involved in the case.
I don't even know what to say about this one. x.x
4-4: Phoenix rapes the case, and consequently the game.
Phoenix: "Finally, after seven years everything I investigated and worked on can be revealed, and I can finally clear my name."
Apollo: "I'll do everything I'm told cause it's my job!"
Quote:
Apollo is a much more interesting character. He's never actually in control over his own situations, but still persists and selflessly completes each task that's assigned to him. With Phoenix, if he doesn't know you, he's not going to want to defend you, or have anything to deal with you.
Cause we all know a guy who gets ordered around like an obidiant dog is far more interesting then an idealist guy who has deep reasons and motives behind what he does. :P
Quote:
He used that card, with the intention of getting Kristoph later (in other words, in 4-4), so he already was set into clearing his name, by that time. Besides he did the same thing he was falsely accused seven years before, and Phoenix has enough pride in his own sense of justice, so I think he wouldn't dare take the bar exam again, it would against in what he believes.
Uh, he used that card to convict Kristoph of a murder he commited, saving himself and an innocent woman at the same time. And as icer said, at that point he felt he would never have the opportunity to clear his name and become a lawyer again and was working to that mindset. Once his name was cleared in 4-4 and it actually became an option again, his mindset would be different and he wouldn't do something like that again. Phoenix knew what he did wasn't good, and he never said it was right, he even provoked Apollo to punch him. Now that the charges against him have been cleared, his life will be able to go in a positive direction and he'll have a much better morals.
Quote:
I don't think the writers are that dumb.
*looks at cases 4-3 and 4-4* >.>...
Quote:
The characters didn't disappear, they just went on with their lives, as much as I would love to see the PW era characters back, I don't think every single of them would appear.
We don't want to see every single PW character from the original trilogy back either, just the ones he's deeply connected to, like Maya, Pearl, Edgeworth, and maybe Larry once in a while. We want to see that the writers haven't snapped and think they aren't important to Phoenix anymore, which judging from a lot of fan fiction I've read, it seems a lot of fans are under that impression.
Re: Why do people keep insisting...
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Wooster wrote:
Proper Ending? Proper ending!? Lets look at the amazing fan service in GS3-5....My goodness, it doesn't get more proper then that for an ending.
It was a good ending, but then they promptly got rid of it! It's no longer the ending for those characters. Therefore, this argument doesn't apply.
As for the rest of the post.. did we even play the same games?
LOL parody sig trend. Phoenix/Maya Day is Sept 5!
[ Read my fanfics! =) | Phoenix/Maya 'Evidence' List ]
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