Rather then counter point every single point, lets turn this around, Say we make this GS5 Phoenix Wright 4.

Case 1: Phoenix Retakes the bar exam. Larry's the defendant. Apollo could've been cheering him on except he or someone else is channeling Mia.
Case 2: Maya's in trouble!
Case 3: Return to Global Studios. Wendy can chase Edgeworth up a tree or something. The murder was an accident caused by defunct Laser Beams from Godot's Mask, who was recently let out of prison on account of already serving a life sentence.
Case 4: Climatic Clash against Edgeworth who is also helping me. The world is saved! Oh, and the Thinker's the Murder Weapon.

That's what we'd like to see right? Everything is tied up neatly for the second time. Now what?

---

You just forgot one thing,
Case 2: Maya's is in trouble and Phoenix meet some random prosecutor, who hates him for some reason, or is connected to him in some way.

---

Yes, that would be a nice, generic PW game.

---

That's a failure to see what we want. People think Phoenix was too unfairly screwed over in terms of life and career in game 4, including after 4-4. I think the main things we want are:

-have him either return to being a lawyer or in a similar decent position where he is genuinely happy and with the actual empowerment to advance his principles and ideals and defend those close to him himself rather than having to reply on a pawn like Apollo to do so. There is no sign whatsoever of any of this at the end of 4-4 and no indication it will ever be the case.

-hey, the other characters of his arc 'disappeared' for purposes of plot and writing, and it's inexplicable that people like Maya and Edgeworth play no real bearing role in his life any more. (In fact it results in even more plotholes since how else could he ever have got the jurist system job.) However, since they basically don't exist in the new arc for writing purposes, many people seem to think they didn't see him for 7 years or something weird. Since Phoenix's friends were integral to his character, we'd want them to at least be mentioned in a way demonstrating they are still fundamental to his life, not just some random easter egg which doesn't even mention them by name. I mean Maya and Edgeworth, the others are unimportant enough to leave in their trilogy.

If they can accomplish this in the tutorial, have Phoenix on his first case back with Maya as assistant and Edgeworth either appear to support him or send his regards if they don't want to draw sprites, then promptly disappear off into the sunset forever, then so be it. If they can do it in some bonus 5th case after some Apollo-centric-action, then so be it. If they can do it in a spin-off like GK2 then so be it. But just dumping Phoenix now he's in this kind of position is unacceptable, and continuing him in the state of unresolution he's in currently is unacceptable too.

(In fact, if they don't let him become a lawyer again and the poor guy hangs around running the 'Anything' Agency still employing Apollo as his pawn and manipulating him to do what he can't because he's frustratedly 'not a lawyer', I'm sure everyone who didn't want him as a lawyer again will be even more annoyed, and my advice to Apollo would be to tell Phoenix to GTFO. Which won't happen because Trucy is his daughter and she isn't about to leave.)


THIS.

---

But that solves everything you just asked for! He returns to office, he becomes empowered, he stops being a hobo and manipulating Apollo at every turn, you get to see Maya and Edgy and Godot and Butz, and you see what happens to them all, everything's answered again!

---

You're missing the part where many (clearly not all, but this is a fandom, so there will never be unanimity) of us DON'T WANT PHOENIX TAKING OVER THE GAMES. We want to resolve what we see as an unacceptable loose end, so that things can actually progress with AJ.

Is there something tremendously difficult to accept about that part? Just because you appear to want no Phoenix at all in GS5 doesn't mean that those of us who want resolution want no Apollo.

Well yes, it would, but I think we both know that's a deliberate exaggeration and I already said the type of amount of content required in my previous post.

I think I see the point you might be trying to make though - no, another Phoenix-centric game in a direct replication of 1-3 is not required and would probably not be the best idea - the case 3-5 was designed as an ending, reached the limits of meaningful character development possible for Phoenix in his original lawyer incarnation, and an entire 4/5th game would have to consist mostly of the relatively boring filler.

However, the extent to which game 4 not only did away with, but actually reversed most of the closure so well implemented in the 3-5 makes the majority of people who liked Phoenix's character annoyed by the sheer level of turmoil and disruption they executed on his former canon-intended 'ending;' of 3-5. Some people refuse to even play the 4th game, others refuse to see it as anything but an alternate reality; whilst this seems an unjustifiably extreme response, many people with a more balanced view agree that while a new arc should be able to proceed sans-Phoenix, the gross disruption of Phoenix's former canon ending caused by what mutated into an unlikely continuation and actual deconstruction of the Phoenix arc makes the current situation Phoenix has been demoted to, well a gross injustice, which is spectacularly insufferable for a character who devoted so much effort fighting for justice for others in his arc. Since this is a story, not real life, so such injustice is merely the whim of the writers, and since Phoenix's intended canon ending was 3-5, something which realigns his life somewhat closer to his situation at the 3-5 credits is what fans demand, so he can then be left to concentrate on the Apollo/Whatever arc.

Believe me, Apollo fans, nobody can ever rest or concentrate on Apollo without Phoenix stealing his spotlight unless Phoenix gets the closure of this kind. This is what Apollo needs as much as Phoenix.

---

Likeability depends entirely on the person playing the game. I like Apollo a lot. When playing the first games, it took me a while before I warmed up to Phoenix, but I've been a sucker for Apollo since the beginning.

As for Phoenix needing closure, if at the start of GS5 Trucy tells us that Phoenix now has a steady job, would that be enough? He's not working at Borscht by the end of the game, but if he found work in an office, or as a legal clerk, or as a jury consultant - or any other steady, paying job that is not "lawyer" - would the complaining stop? Anti-AJ fans seem to be measuring Phoenix's happiness as a person by his profession, but I think that is an even greater disservice to his character than anything AJ threw at him.

Phoenix started out as an art major. If he went back to that (became a Shakespearean actor, as Takumi once suggested) and was able to make an honest living for him and his daughter, would you still say he's "frustrated" and "unhappy"? You don't need a full spin-off game for that. You don't even need a full case. I honestly believe that if Phoenix had a simple job to pay the bills, kept in contact with his friends, was able to take care of Trucy, and every once in a while could "unofficially" lend his brain to a murder mystery, he would be satisfied. And that's pretty much how he is in AJ.

Or is "lawyer" the only thing that will ever be enough?

---

Think of it this way: What could Phoenix possibly accomplish as a Lawyer that he already hasn't done? He's already:
Changed Edgeworth's outlook on life
Saved Maya a million times
Avenged Mia
Sorted out his own past
Reduced Gumshoe's paycheck to nearly nothing
Defended pretty much every friend he's ever had
Raped Godot in the ass
Successfully ruined the life of every member of the Fey family
Lost
Found out the butler did it
Blew up the death star twice

...and I'm probably forgetting a ton of stuff.

Anything more would just be jumping the shark.

That's kind of pathetic, really. Two (three if you count Maya) friends!?!

---

I think people need to get out of the mindset that Apollo is Phoenix's "pawn" but should think that more he's Phoenix's "successor"

Wasn't that like the original title of Case 4 in Japan? Turnabout Successor?

By taking out Kristoph (with help from Phoenix), Apollo takes up where Phoenix left off, including picking up the ideal of fighting for the truth.

---

I guess that's where we can agree to disagree on these matters. I've been a sucker for Nick since the first game, and I think it's going to take the writers a lot of work before I can connect with Apollo.



I can't speak for everyone, but I wouldn't mind. As long as he's doing a job he enjoys doing. 4-4 was proof enough to me he hated that job as a pianist/poker player, and the only reason he did it was to meet Zak again and confront him about everything. Now that everything's been settled, I think Phoenix deserves a chance to do something he would enjoy and still make an honest living.



Help more people who are in trouble? I mean, that's what a lawyer does and all, right?

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Ah yes, but in a written work, helping people in trouble ceases to be entertaining when you've covered it from every angle.

If GS4 kept him a lawyer, but jaded and a complete douche, I would have been entertained. Mostly because it's different, but that's also out of character.

This whole argument kinda reminds me of Dragonball Z though:

"DUDE THEY SHOULD MAKE A SEQUEL!"

"But Goku's already gone Super Saiyan 4, beaten every villain he's ever fought twice, died 10 times and became president."

"NO WAY, I HEAR HE AND GOHAN FUSE AND BECOME GOKUHAN AND FIGHT KID BUU FUSED WITH CELL FUSED WITH THE OX KING CALLED KID CELL KING!"

"nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!"

QFT

---

Pickens I think I love you 8D



I think this is a matter of perspective as well. My brother and I were just talking about this earlier: neither of us ever got the impression while playing GS4 that Phoenix hated his job or his life. Immediately after being disbarred he was upset, of course. And he never put too much effort into either of his jobs at Borscht. But it didn't feel to me like he was harboring any kind of deep-seeded bitterness, just determination.

He was just doing what any father would: making ends meet. Maybe with his name cleared he'll have better employment opportunities, but I wouldn't be surprised if in GS5 they made it kind of a running joke that he bounced around a lot.

---

Mr. Anderson, why do you persist?
*cough* Anyway, I haven't played Apollo Justice yet and have no strong feelings against him at all. I DID have a bias against him at first because of the hobo-fication thing, though. It's like Highlander or unicorns in a way; there can only be one Ace Attorney. Someone had to fall. Apollo received a Quickening. Alternatively, you could think of the whole ordeal as similar to the outrage when Kyle Rayner replaced Hal Jordan; Phoenix is the old hero Hal who's been demoted from hero in an absolutely humiliating fashion while Apollo is fresh new replacement Kyle. And then years later it'll be revealed that Phoenix was possessed by a yellow fear bug.
*cough*
Anyway, I agree with the original post. There isn't any point to Apollo hate, especially since he doesn't deserve most of the stigma against him. I would like it if Phoenix regaining his badge was a sub-plot and I deeply, deeply want some more closure for some characters (as some of the people above are trying to explain) but the main focus should be on Apollo from now on. Until the fear bug gets him too. Then the cycle shall begin again.

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Does it really matter that much. You can't even see who you are for about half the game. The only thing that would be different is their sprite. (and thought process i guess) Either way you're going to take a seemingly completely unhelpful route to victory. Besides Nick is too experienced now, and all other games have been made so a rookie attorney (or one not confident in their abilities) were the main role. So unless Phoenix forgot everything about law, which doesn't appear to be the case, or some progressively harder prosecutors come along, I'd say that Apollo is the way their going. but I do hope the other main characters get their lives put back into the game ( )

But Phoenix has his life ruined now Well, it's getting slightly fixed, what with the Jurist system job, but...I just need some closure for him!

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It would be better than nothing - but it would depend very much on whether Phoenix's new situation fulfilled the requirements of my previous post.

You seem to think we don't like Phoenix's position because he's a lowly hobo without a 'respectable' job - but it's not that at all - if Phoenix, post 3-5, had one day said 'I've done everything I wanted to as a lawyer, so I'm going to choose to quit and become a hobo', we could support his decision. However, Phoenix never wanted to quit being a lawyer and it's made painfully obvious in 4-4 that he misses it - like when he examines that figure on the desk, he can't help shouting 'OBJECTION!' and exclaims "I've got to stop torturing myself! I can't believe it's been 7 years."

This and the fact that he's so frustrated by lack of ability to be a lawyer that he's actually exploiting Apollo to perform lawyer functions for him that he wishes he could still do and can't.

Post 4-4, the cynicism and disillusionment wrought by the whole disbarring fiasco could have indeed brought him to the level he no longer wants to be a lawyer now the Kristoph case is resolved - but it would have been obviously directly caused by the suffering executed by the writers' injustice to him, rather than the Phoenix character's 'free will' and likely development post 3-5.

Having a 'respectable' job like 'legal clerk' although better than some possible alternatives, is also an unfair downgrade - Phoenix never got into law to do boring legal administration and that sounds like a lowly position for people not allowed to be lawyers. He became a lawyer to help people and fight injustice against people who had noone to help them. As your quote demonstrated, he's very apathetic - until he's helping a friend and/or he's fighting for his deep seated principles such as against injustice. Then he gets intensely motivated. A satisfactory job other than lawyer would have to be genuinely believable as one he both enjoys and provides him the same capacity and empowerment to help his friends and fight for his principles.

I'd also be mad if he returns as a 'pianist' - I find it hard to believe he'd suddenly and conveniently develop a passion for it; if in 4-4 he was at least neutral to it, then he would have at least played a second song.

If he became a lawyer again, little explanation would be required by the writers - we can assume he gets to fight for his principles in the same way he got fulfillment in games 1-3, we can assume his life returns more to something resembling the point post 3-5, and the writers don't have to devote much screen time or explicit plot development to satisfactorily depict this.

I assume you don't want him a lawyer because it might take spotlight off Apollo, but the reverse is true. The least amount has to be done to depict his 'new' situation, and players can satisfactorily fill in the blanks themselves without having to be distracted from Apollo.
As a lawyer, he never has to take cases on-screen or anything, and the spotlight could move to Apollo far more than than the additional focus Phoenix would still attain and require if he still wasn't a lawyer. (And make Apollo start his own practice -Trucy can still be Apollo's assistant and Phoenix can return to Wright and co.)

If you don't want him a lawyer because you think he shouldn't be 'allowed' to after what he did in 4-1 [forged Ace etc] then that's insisting that Phoenix has been successfully and irreversibly corrupted by Kristoph and Gant and the injustice he worked so hard to fight, meaning that, in effect, Kristoph and Gant have triumphed in their permanent disbarment of this particular force of justice, 4-4 was futile, and is that what the Phoenix of the trilogy really deserves as his ending?



But we see Apollo as a pawn, not a successor, because that's exactly how he's depicted. For example, Phoenix was Mia's direct successor, in using his own initiative to choose to continue Mia's fight (neither Mia nor Maya asked or expected him to), independently figure out the case and finish Mia's (also 3-5 but let's compare game 1 for now) life's work by convicting White. Mia did not solve the case for him, merely provided a single piece of evidence he lacked, the case was itself, in effect, solved by Phoenix.

Apollo didn't even have the initiative to take case 4-1 or 4-4 himself, Phoenix tells him to ["You are going to be the Defense Attorney for the trial"] and Phoenix has solved every single detail of case 4-4. This isn't a successor, this is kind of a co-opted Puppet extension of Phoenix - and it's entirely consensual that Apollo is playing the role of Phoenix's badge-wearing puppet.

A true successor would have independently heard of the injustice which happened to Phoenix, chosen to help him, colluded on details and evidence, then solved the case himself to convict Kristoph and prove Phoenix innocent. But when Apollo took the cases he had no idea he was to convict Kristoph.

It's made clear that Phoenix is Mia's direct successor (apart from just Diego's literal interpretation in 3-5) by his own initiative and in his own way showing and continuing to advance the exact same principles of belief in the good in his innocent client. Redd White may have killed Mia, but in terms of justice, it's only a superficial victory - Phoenix by his own initiative exposes all White's crimes and continues advancing what are directly Mia's style of principles in Mia's place.

By contrast Apollo is definitely not Phoenix's successor, he's his own style of lawyer, not one in the Phoenix mould ("I did this because Mr Gavin told me" "I did this because Mr Wright told me -and I'm not emotionally or principally engaged in any way")
and whilst this is fine as he is a new character, it means his existence does not in any way compensate in terms of justice that Phoenix is not a lawyer, in the way that Phoenix's fight at least partially compensated for the injustice of Mia's death.

And if you believe that Phoenix shouldn't be allowed to be a lawyer any more due to what he did in 4-1, then you're implying that unlike the only superficial setback White had on advancement of Mia's principles of justice, only a hollow, superficial victory was ever executed over Kristoph and Gant and that they triumphed at a deeper level by permanently destroying the ability of the character of games 1-3 to continue the principles of justice he and Mia were so passionate about. Kristoph and Gant's corrupt and permanent victory over the legacy and principles of Phoenix and Mia is not the ending we want to the trilogy.

Because Apollo is his own style of lawyer, and is not in any way continuing Phoenix's legacy, or Mia's either, and that would mean that 4-4 was really too late and in vain.

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I don't think that's true at all. If Phoenix was a lawyer, practicing off screen while Apollo was off doing other things, it seems to me we'd have just as many people complaining, "Why can't we have a side game of Phoenix solving these other cases we don't see?" Everyone would be be demanding to know "Is Maya still working with him? If Maya is (or isn't) what about Pearl?" etc etc. Plus you'd then have to explain why anyone would ever go to Apollo if Phoenix the God-Lawyer is still practicing.

Kind of like how some people say they would be happy about Maya not being in the game if it would at least acknowledge her - but the game *does* indicate she is still involved in Phoenix's life, and yet no one was satisfied with the reference. You can say "If only they would do this..." about a lot of things, but to those who can't leave the original trilogy behind, I doubt it'll ever be enough.



I don't think that's a fair assessment of the situation. In 4-1, Phoenix called Kristoph immediately after discovering the murder, and then told Kristoph that he wanted Apollo. When Apollo got the case he was shocked but he went into it with a great deal of passion. In 4-4 he took the case at Phoenix's instructions, yes, but again the case is handed to him just like Phoenix had most of his cases handed to him: he only protested at first because it was such short notice, but once he's into the case, he's completely comitted, not just because Phoenix told him to be, but because he cares about helping people and seeing the truth come out.

You can't say for certain if Apollo wouldn't have taken either of those cases if he hadn't been given them first. In 4-2 he shows more enthusiasm towards defending a perfect stranger, from the moment he heard about it, than Phoenix did in several of his cases.

It's true that Phoenix prodded Apollo into a lot of things, but other than the evidence in 4-1 (which was cruel of him, really) it's not like he was pushing Apollo into things he didn't want to do. If Apollo had been told ahead of time that the ace was fake, I'm willing to bet he would refuse to present it, but still fight his hardest to get the truth out anyway. Phoenix wanted Apollo to reveal the truth behind his disbarment, but Apollo wanted that, too. You can look at it like Phoenix was using Apollo, or you can look at it like he was enabling Apollo. Apollo was able to take and solve some very historic cases thanks to Phoenix's interference. If you asked Apollo at the end of 4-4 if he would rather be where he is now (the newb lawyer who exonorated the famous Phoenix Wright) or if he wishes 4-1 had never happened (leaving him working for a murderer without ever knowing it) wouldn't he choose the former?

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Just explicitly state that PHOENIX is running a LEGAL practice along with MAYA FEY and MILES EDGEWORTH. PEARL VISITS. That's all we need. Hey, you don't even have to say he's a LAWYER.

It could be along the lines of Trucy turning up to Apollo at the start of the game with a letter, which gets added to your evidence, people who didn't play any of the previous 4 games (who on earth are they?) don't even have to read it.

Dear Apollo,
Congratulations on starting your own legal practice. I agree it's time for you to strike out on your own, and I'm sure that Trucy will be all the help you need.

Thanks again for all your help, don't worry about me as I am running my legal practice with my best friends Maya Fey and Miles Edgeworth. We fight to expose the truth and further justice and defend the innocent etc etc etc

Best regards,

Phoenix Wright
PS. Pearl is visiting, Trucy!

On that basis, fans of the trilogy can extrapolate that Phoenix, Edgeworth and Maya are continuing their fight for justice, and their friendships, much the same way they did in the trilogy, except better because they are older and wiser and all that. It's the perfect ending (the type we would have wanted and expected for these characters) and we can be satisfied with this and concentrate on the new arc (which can now be a new arc instead of a deconstruction of the old arc.)



Perople wanted a more meaningful acknowledgment. It was better than nothing, but it was almost nothing - lots of people didn't even recognise it as being a reference to Maya, or forgot to examine the DVDs. And Edgeworth got none at all in relation to Phoenix. Based on what we saw in 3-5, we expect far greater involvement from both characters - and a slight mention could have solved some major plotholes too, like how Phoenix even got the jurist job. (For example, you really think Maya wouldn't support Phoenix if he was on trial for murder like he was in 4-1?)


Um, I don't think anybody ever said to Phoenix "Oh, you are going to be the defense attorney at the trial tomorrow." (Didn't even get a choice.)

Poor Apollo, out of a job since Kristoph was jailed.. he turns up expecting to be a lawyer at Wright Agency, but - then Phoenix sends him out on some kind of panties-rescue trip! This isn't lawyering at all!

So naturally he is ecstatic when after these awful non-lawyer tasks which he doesn't even get paid for, he gets to TAKE A CASE! He's a lawyer, after all.

You do realise that if Phoenix isn't off solving his own cases, he's going to keep butting into Apollo's, don't you? I don't think the writers are stupid enough to make him die, he can't leave unless there's a timeskip because he's still Trucy's guardian and we assume she's only 16 in the next game, and if he has some menial job he'll appear and involve himself in cases. And I think most people recognise that a Mia-style mentor relationship between Phoenix-Apollo just isn't very possible given what we see in game 4. It's too much of a compromise for both characters.

Trucy: Daddy has a fun new job as a boring legal clerk!

Phoenix: Guess what Apollo! I was so bored, I found this file. It exposed a hidden crime and I was so bored with filing that I solved it! I want you to stand in court with your badge and...

Trucy: [Daddy was fired from legal clerk for loitering] Daddy has a fun new job as a street sweeper!

Phoenix: Guess what Apollo, today I swept up some EVIDENCE! ....

If this goes on, it will be much like 4-2 and 4-3. I will spend the entire case wondering where Phoenix is, what he's doing, if he's okay or has been run over/disbarred/convicted of murder again, and wondering when he'll turn up again. I will be worried about his job, such as it is, and if he likes it. I will be delighted when Phoenix turns up, other people will be annoyed, but one thing's clear, he's hogging the spotlight far more with his non-lawyer jobs because why else would there be such a plot point except for him to eventually turn up in some capacity?

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The circles are making me dizzy.
As for the Phoenix haters, cut it out. Apollo will never be better than Nick. And that's not said in a hater way. Just an opinion based on the whole "pawn" thing.

When I played GS4, in the beginning I liked it. But then everything turned sour when I played that flashback case. It was highly insulting and irresponsible for the writers to have handled Nick that way, just to make room for the new "boy" lawyer.

Also, Apollo will never get a Super Objection. Never.

So can we stop dancing around in circles and face facts? Please?

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Face what facts? Everything in your post was an opinion. Not everyone thinks Apollo is a miserable loser that should be dumped from the series for not being Phoenix.

Yeah, but a lot of people seem to think that Apollo is a loser. if you have three really good games where lots of people support the main character, and then suddenly make him disappear and replace him with some totally new guy, not many people are going to jump aboard the new bandwagon anytime soon. I mean, Phoenix was a great character- in PW:AA he was a new lawyer, fighting his clients. Then, in 2-4, Phoenix's whole worldview gets shifted- we all know how that happened. Phoenix was wrestling with himself at that point- should I fight for the truth or save the ones close to me? And in 3-5, it turns a full circle- Phoenix, when given the choice, indicts Godot, even though Mia was willing to let Godot go and let him be free. So now Phoenix knows what is the most important in court- the truth. And then he gets disbarred. And then, up comes Apollo. He is simply a pawn, as I believe someone said, not a successor. He doesn't have take any cases because he wants to- he is forced into them by other people. He is, essentially, Phoenix's Mr. Hat with an attorney's badge. Now wonder people hate Apollo.

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Those are still opinions. A lot of us also like Apollo and don't think he's a loser just because he had Phoenix as a mentor/chessmaster. In any case, though, it's not like Phoenix was dumped from his own franchise - GS3 was supposed to be the last game for him, and the end of the series, period. I would have hated GS4 if they tried to half-ass a new storyline about Phoenix because they'd resolved everything they had for him and his cast. It would have had to be a shoe-horned flashback game not befitting the GS moniker, or it would have had to undo all the character development and plot that had happened up to that point to pretend there was still something for Phoenix to learn from being a lawyer.

I also notice that most of the things you note as Phoenix's positives took two or three games to develop. His character in the first game is rather flat - he's a traditional good-hearted hero that just wants to help people. He was also constantly subverted by other characters in the plot that had much showier traits than he did. The first game mainly succeeds on the strength of the storyline and the novelty of the gameplay, whereas Phoenix, while not being a bad character, is also rather unintrusive to the storyline. It took two games to develop him further than that - he's a much stronger character in the second and third games entirely because of the experiences that shape him in the previous titles. So why the assumption that Apollo isn't?

Also, seriously, how many cases did Phoenix take of his own free will? Maya made him take a few, a good majority of his cases were taken entirely because it was his friends on trial, and even Ema basically strong-armed him into defending her sister. It's not any different for Apollo. I think the "pawn" argument is just a weak excuse to try and diminish what Apollo actually can do on his own by over-inflating Phoenix's role in his cases.

Thank you so much, that's just what I wanted to say <3

In 4-1 Phoenix requested Apollo and he accepted. In fact, he was thrilled to do it. In 4-2 Alita requested Apollo and he accepted, again with great enthusiasm. In 4-3 Machi requested Apollo and he accepted even though he couldn't even understand his own client. This is how an office of law is supposed to work: you get hired.

And I'm sorry Icer, but your suggestion about the letter is just... ugh, that would make me gag.



So you're against Phoenix being taken out of his law office, but you're okay with reversing Maya's character growth in 3-5 by removing her from her position as Kurain's master so she can be office assistant to Phoenix at age 25? What about the fact that Edgeworth hasn't practiced in the USA since 1-5, and GKenji makes it clear he's not about to become a defense attorney anytime soon? I know you probably just typed that up as a quick example, but you can see how it's just not that simple.

If GS4 could have been made without Phoenix at all, I would have been satisfied with that. But Capcom said he had to be there, and I'm pretty sure that means Phoenix has to be in GS5 as well. Assuming he *has* to be present in some capacity or another, I would much rather he play a role similar to the one he did in 4-2 and 4-3: an outsider who once in a while gives you a hint in the right direction. As long as he's just enough on the outside not to solve the case for you and doesn't have deep background associations with Apollo's clients and such, it seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

Think of how satisfying it would be to then have Apollo beat Phoenix to the answer!

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5-1: Phoenix gets his badge back and takes his first case, narrowing managing to win (as usual). This would also make a good excuse for a tutorial, since Nick would be rusty after not practicing for so many years. After the case ends, he realizes he should really learn some more about this law stuff if he's going to keep taking people's fates into his hands, and so decides to go study up on law overseas for a while (maybe with Edgeworth and/or Franziska in Germany?) and lets Apollo and Trucy run things on their own.

Would anyone have a problem with this?

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Maya stated at the end of 3-5 she was going to be the Master AND still be Phoenix's legal assistant. Why is everyone under the impression Maya is too busy to bother with Phoenix (one of the arguments I hear about her being AWOL in AA4) ?



Well while for the most part I'd be fine if he played the background role for most of the cases, he should still continue to play a vital role in the final case. Not "taking over the case" as he did in 4-1 and 4-4, but playing as much of a role as the others did in the final cases from previous games.

---

Phoenix was too lazy to actively seek out cases, only taking ones connected with his friends, but once he got the case he solved them himself, without being hugely manipulated. Mia and his friends helped, but it wasn't like they fundamentally solved the whole thing. In 4-4 Apollo is literally given no choice, Phoenix just tells him he is going to be the DA tomorrow - this never happens with Phoenix, it's his decision to take the case when the opportunity is presented to him. Although he has the potential to develop beyond a pawn, this is all he was in GS4, which is the character development we're supposed to have fallen in love with thus far, and trying to claim he's supposed to be Phoenix's successor and somehow make up for the fact Phoenix was disbarred didn't seem to be the intention of the writers and certainly doesn't happen in the game.


Quote 3-5 credits
Maya:
I'll really have to work extra
hard now!

Maya:
Master of Kurain and the
office manager of Wright &
Co. Law Offices.

She has no intention of stopping either position here and it's perfectly possible to do both in 7 years time. This was the original canon ending intended for her character, after all.


I said legal office, they could be doing any kind of legal-related stuff and I never intended Edgeworth to be a defense attorney. (You know, like Jurist Systems, but let's not get into that, too many Mason System plotholes and weird Gantish manipulation claims.) Of course I just wrote the letter off the top of my head and many fans want evidence that he's still in close association with Edgeworth -doesn't have to be an exact example. (Also, I was under the impression GK has Edgeworth in his 1-5 style office around the Game 3 timeline? So maybe the canon will amend to prosecuting etc in the game area again after game 3?)

Is it the contents specifically or the concept of the letter itself you hate? It's a bit cliched, but it gets rid of him for people who want that, and it doesn't cause much distraction.


Satisfying to you, apparently. (I suppose casting Apollo as a sort of underdog to Phoenix endeared some people to him.)

Fact is, like with that argument you made previously (where a hint/mention/explanation that Phoenix is a lawyer would never be enough because people would demand to know more about the old chars and want to play Phoenix's cases,) just like in game 4, nobody would be satisfied with how much of an 'outsider' Phoenix is, how much of a role he does or doesn't play, and whatever they depict him as. They'd complain he was hogging the spotlight or treating Apollo unfairly or his life position sucked or whatever.

Also, if Phoenix is still at all motivated to solve cases (how else could Apollo 'beat' him to the answer, if Phoenix isn't trying to solve the case) it begs the question - why isn't he a lawyer, or at least an actual detective? The whole messy disbarring plot they threw in game 4 to make sure he 'couldn't' be a lawyer isn't as obvious in game 5 now his name is cleared. Trying to imply he now runs some kind of law/whatever firm including Apollo but isn't a lawyer kind of smacks of that old cliche that he's living through Apollo because he can't be a lawyer, and this does disservice to both characters' development. In fact it seems to be a very bad idea for both Phoenix and Apollo.

Face it, part of the answer of the original question 'why do people keep insisting' is that the scale of what they did to Phoenix's life and career ripping apart his original canon ending of 3-5 is seen by many people as an injustice to his character. And we haven't seen a resolution which compensates for that injustice any time soon.



'Return Phoenix' should have been handled differently. It never had to be another Phoenix game in the style of 1-3. For example, I still say that if they wanted the disbarring plot, they should have had Apollo be with Kristoph longer, discover himself his mentor is less than perfect, either have Phoenix have been recently in the disbarring fiasco (say a year ago) or it happen during the game, and have Apollo uncover the truth of 4-4. Possibly to start with Apollo might believe that Phoenix is guilty, but he manages to uncover the truth about the disbarring plot and Kristoph's murders, Apollo gets Kristoph put away and Phoenix's name cleared (something happens with jury systems), everyone is happy, Phoenix's life disruption wasn't of such an insulting level, Apollo actually is a character we can all admire, (since he had the initiative and passion for justice to save Phoenix, ) and we could have successfully had Apollo Justice 5 without further resolution needed for Phoenix.



As we've seen here, most people do agree that Phoenix's character was stronger even after game 1, although it developed further in 2 and 3, he already had way more characterisation than the mostly-generic Apollo. I agree the strength of the storyline was the major factor in game 1, but the storyline is closely connected with Phoenix's characterisation and they require each other to work.

You keep just saying "pawn" but I already pointed out that in Apollo's first three cases he was hired and accepted just like every other case Phoenix ever took. In the fourth case Phoenix signed him up as the defense attorney but it's not like he couldn't have backed out if he honestly wanted to. Once Apollo learns more about the case he's very determined to solve it, and the outcome benefits him and Phoenix both. Just because Phoenix wasn't as "nice" to him as Mia was to Phoenix doesn't mean there's no respect between them.

The problem with I had with your "letter" solution is that it's the shallowest kind of fanservice there is. It's like saying, "Don't worry about them, they lived happily ever after" without actually answering anything and rendering the entire 4th game pointless. I think it also does a disservice to Maya and Edgeworth to say that for the past 7 years they've obviously been living lives of their own, but once Phoenix is a lawyer again they drop everything to run back to him.

I know in 3-5 Maya said she could be Master and Phoenix's assistant, but I would really hope that she's matured some in the past several years. The idea of Maya at age 25 leaving her duties in her village for even a few days just to exchange cheery barbs with Phoenix doesn't sit well with me. She's an adult now, she has responsibilities that are more important than step-ladder jokes. I think it would be much more appropriate if they simply remained close friends, and maybe Phoenix sometimes had her summon for him once in a while, the way Kurain seemingly used to before DL-6.

But to define a relationship like that Phoenix's letter would go more like, "I've got my own firm now, and I have a great friend Maya who sometimes helps me out, and sometimes I talk to Miles Edgeworth, who you may remember as a prosecutor who is now working yada yada..." Which just gets to be silly, and also out of character for Phoenix to be telling Apollo anyway.

Really I can't imagine Phoenix starting his own practice completely separate from Apollo anyway. That would really make it seem like he was just using Apollo all along to get his badge back, and once he has it, see ya! I don't think he'd want to make Trucy choose between them, either.

How to deal with Phoenix in GS5 is obviously a complicated issue. You can't please everyone. As someone who enjoyed GS4, I hope Capcom puts some faith into their team and let's them continue down the path they've started. I feel like at this point, backpeddling to make AJ non-canon or to reverse the characterization they've given Phoenix would only annoy the people that liked it, and confirm for those that didn't that they wasted their time. If they ever want more people to like Apollo, they have to move forward, not back.

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You guys do realize what's bound to happen by the end of this trilogy, right? Apollo's going to become a better (or more famous) lawyer than Phoenix. That's how these things always work. The "master" is always outdone by the student.

Think back to the original trilogy. To show how far Phoenix progressed, they had to compare him to Mia. You always heard all of these stories about what a great attorney Mia was, and how she was one of the best at her job and blah blah blah. Then, if Mia's so great, who's better than her? Diego Armando aka Godot, Mia's "Mentor." Diego's supposed to be so much better than Mia, so what do they do to show Phoenix's "strength"? They pit Phoenix against Diego. They use him and Mia as the measuring stick to show how good of a lawyer Phoenix is. Of course Phoenix beats Godot on his own and all of you guys know the rest of the story.

The arguments some of you people are making is that Apollo isn't really anymore than Phoenix's pawn. If this is true, then in AA couldn't Phoenix be considered as much Mia's pawn. She constantly Obi-Wan Kenobi'd herself into court to tell Phoenix to try this or do that. "What's that Mia? Use the metal detector?" "What's that Mia? Maya's at the circus?" etc. Though despite all of this, Phoenix finally manages to step out of her shadow and eliminate his need of her assistance.

People don't complain that Mia isn't happy or that she doesn't get enough closure. At face value, her closure is dying in the second case and not getting to be a lawyer anymore. That, however, isn't true. She's really happy. Her sister is fine and lives a good life and Phoenix is an accomplished lawyer in addition to finishing up all of the unfinished business she left behind. Even though she's dead, I'd say she's content with all of the things she was able to get done.

I fully expect the same thing to happen with Apollo. Phoenix is his Mia and if you give Apollo enough time, he'll end up doing things Phoenix could never have done. I wouldn't worry about Phoenix, I'm more interested in seeing what comes out of his past to be Apollo's "measuring stick".

The fact that you're all taking this way too seriously into a game of "I'm right no matter what" when instead it should be "I have my own opinion but that doesn't make it absolutely true".
I stated an opinion. Yes, of course. Get over it.
Don't bite my head off just because I decided to side with Nicky Boy, and went MEH.
I'll say it again for all to hear/read.

MEH

Get over it. Honestly. It's a fucking video game.
(of course, I guess that's the negative side of Phoenix Fandom)

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Nobody here is saying "I'm right no matter what" and neither we are stating our opinions, we are discussing something, and people here are, literally, presenting their evidence to prove their point of view. We are like defence and prosecution, in a courtroom.
You simply can't say "APOLLO SUCKS, NICK IS BETTER" OR "APOLLO IS THE NEW HERO, FORGET PHOENIX", you have to present something to prove your fact.
And, sure, it's just a game, but it doesn't mean we can't discuss it seriously, I mean if we are treating it as "just a game", we wouldn't be in this forum, would we?

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I never personally got the impression Diego was supposed to be better than Mia in some great lawyer mentor sense, not by the time she died anyway. (But of course the eclipsing Mia and all that stands, obviously.)

*and round we go again, I know I've explained this before*. Phoenix wasn't Mia's pawn in game 1 like Apollo was Phoenix's pawn in game 4. After Mia is killed, neither Mia nor Maya expects or asks him to defend Maya or take over the law office, Maya asks for Grossberg, who refuses, and then Maya was preparing to take the state appointed lawyer except Phoenix decides completely independantly to take the case. Then Phoenix solves most of the case himself (not Phoenix solving most of the case 4-1 for Apollo in manipulation of the basest kind) Then, only after Phoenix has solved the majority of the case himself does Mia come in with (yes, rather convenient, but he solved most of the case himself) the critical fact of the evidence. [Oh the irony that in Apollo's case, the parallel evidence given by his mentor is a forgery!]

Mia didn't direct Phoenix to take case 1-3 or, crucially, 1-4. Saving Edgeworth was entirely Phoenix's own mission, not some idea of Mia's, and she wasn't even present, just helped him out on one small point. And of course, that was the crucial trial of the game. In 4-4, not only did Phoenix force Apollo to take the trial, but Phoenix did the entire investigation and solved the entirety of the crime and Apollo's court session was brief and barely did anything.

In game 2, Phoenix independently decides to save Maya in 2-2, Mia only helps out after he decides to take the case. There's no manipulation on Mia's part. In 2-4 she doesn't seem to be forcing any personal agendas on him either, even though it's Maya's life on the line. In 3-5, Mia never forces him into the whole Dahlia/Diego etc mess, it's not Mia's idea that Phoenix accompanies Maya and Pearl on the [Morgan-manipulated] trip to Hazakurain, and it's Phoenix's decision to defend Iris after the murder, nothing to do with Mia. Mia helps Phoenix in court, sure, but Phoenix always solves the vast majority of the crime and finds the vast majority of contradictions himself, and there isn't the sense of being manipulated or forced into taking cases to advance Mia's agenda.

I mean, I'm not bashing Apollo here, if Apollo wants to be a pawn, then fine! But it's set up a very difficult style of relationship between Phoenix and Apollo, one which will be difficult to handle in future games because it's not like the one between Phoenix and Mia.


That's the big problem. Phoenix is alive. That's one of the crucial differentiations here. Mia was dead, so of course she couldn't do anything much for herself in court or investigations, and she could conveniently go back to being dead whenever we didn't want the spotlight on her. No wondering where she is, because she's, well, being dead! But Phoenix is a qualified lawyer, [or could be if he retook the bar] so he could potentially do cases himself, and is alive, so he could potentially do investigations himself, and could potentially get whatever else done himself. So he really doesn't need Apollo, the way there was a beneficial relationship between Mia and Phoenix. It would be more possible for Phoenix to change [again] into a Mia-esque mentor to Apollo if he, you know, got to be a lawyer again, but then we're back to where some people don't like that idea, and people wanting to see Phoenix's cases, and...



Does anybody ever demand they get rid of Apollo? (Well, somebody probably does, but in general, no). However, this whole idea that there's some kind of Phoenix vs Apollo among fans, is partly why I don't see the hobo mentor thing working out in future games unless Phoenix gets far better resolution - people who liked Apollo range from being polarized into demanding Phoenix is killed or disappears, or hope he'll stick around, NOT as a lawyer because that might take Apollo's spotlight, and hope that Apollo will one day one-up and outsmart Phoenix. Phoenix's fans tend to see what was inflicted on him for game 4 as an injustice, and won't stand to see further indignity heaped on his character in this vein, which is what we can likely expect if he has to hang around assisting Apollo as 'not a lawyer'. [And I don't mean his 'different' characterisation, I thought his hobo persona was awesome, though the flashback case was intolerable.]

Apollo was pretty generic, but I'd be more supportive of his character if there wasn't this kind of expectation among Apollo fans that I'm supposed to support him 100%, because the gods of GyakuSai have supposedly decreed him as the Future of the Series (forget GK) and wanting any kind of better resolution for Phoenix after what they inflicted on his life in game 4 is some kind of sacrilege. 'It's Apollo's Turn Now' somehow negates any wish for the character who made the success of the series to receive greater justice in his treatment and better realignment with his old arc.


Nothing's obvious. We don't know what they've been doing for the last 7 years, Edgeworth could have been dead if they weren't making GK for all the evidence we got. You really think either of them would say 'Phoenix got disbarred. Oh well, I don't care! I'll forget about him." It could be a more complex issue, but that takes lots of time and attention to resolve. And a very significant proportion of the fanbase wants some kind of proper indication of Phoenix's continued relationship with Maya and Edgeworth.

Sure, it's fanservice. But, it's a relatively painless way to solve a lot of the fanbase's problems. Hey, it's not that great a solution, (give me better ones, I'd love to see them!) but lots of people seem to hate every other idea concerning Phoenix. It gets rid of Phoenix for all the people who want that, it puts the spotlight totally on Apollo for people who want that, it reconnects Phoenix with his two key friends from the old arc (lots of people want that) and if it renders the entire 4th game pointless - well what was the point of the 4th game for Phoenix anyway? Not much. As for Apollo, the 'mentoring' he got from Phoenix and the sidekick in the form of Trucy isn't exactly going to go away, nor are the familial revelations. He's free to get some character development concerning himself.

'without answering anything' well, answering anything would require too much reference and even *gasp* return of the old chars, which would throw the spotlight wayy off the new cast. In hindsight, probably a lot of people think that it would have been better if Phoenix hadn't returned to the 4th game since 3-5 was good resolution for his character and him in game 4 was bad for him and Apollo and of course the writers didn't want to return him in the first place. I suppose it's kind of damage control, but it would probably placate a majority of the fanbase from both the Apollo and Phoenix rabid sides. Not everyone, of course..


(Aww, poor Maya, stuck in Kurain for the rest of her life and can't leave even for a few days! No wonder Mia quit to be a lawyer and Misty ran away.) Like it or not, that was the ending they had for her character in 3-5, so it was the writers' intention. We don't know exactly what being the Master entails, but I don't think she has to be stuck in Kurain all the time. In fact, 3-5 seems to establish it as a fairly powerful diplomatic position, and I'm not sure all those diplomats would want to be making trips to the backwater of Kurain. (And Phoenix thought she was useful beyond a target of stepladder jokes, even if you didn't.)

Letter to Trucy? We could play as her...


Ah, but he was. Well, not to 'get his badge back', but to clear his name/put away Kristoph. That was the impression I got, very strongly. Much as I like Phoenix, I don't think him using Apollo in that way was very ethical (but Apollo was totally willing to be used.) And Trucy could keep being Apollo's legal assistant without it being some betrayal of Phoenix - we can assume she still lives with him or whatever.

I'm curious - do you want Phoenix to leave? You don't want him a lawyer - what do you want him doing, exactly?

Yeah, the only way Phoenix wasn't going to take that case was if he's a total bastard. "Hey, my mentor just died and her kid sister found her and was accused of the crime. She totally left me this building and business (I assume) to run after she died but I'm just not going to do anything to help either of them."



See, this is exactly what's wrong. This is the exact point I was making with my list and DBZ comparisons. You can admit, by forcing Apollo into 4-4, they made the end of the game very Phoenix-centric. How are we supposed to develop the new main character if you take another case/game and focus it on Phoenix becoming a lawyer again? Apollo doesn't even have a chance to measure up to him. The whole reason Apollo was created is that they took Phoenix as far as they could. He was too good, everything was too perfect. What more could you do with the character that hasn't already been done? That's why he's a hobo, that's why he's not a lawyer anymore, and that's why he took to forging evidence and grooming Apollo to be awesome.




The point isn't that he's alive, it's that his role is/will be supporting Apollo from the sidelines as Mia did for Phoenix in the original trilogy. I can almost guarantee you that they'll keep with this formula.

It doesn't matter. Mia didn't get closure. I insist that in game 5 she comes back as a zombie, and tells Phoenix to tell Apollo what to do. Also she becomes the first zombie to pass the bar exam and eats Maya's brains. Mia is undead happily ever after. The end.

If you'd read my first post, it says "opinion" within the first few sentences. I never claimed a fact. Though that may have been the attitude.
*coffee mug slides out of nowhere into open hand*
Of course, to be quite blunt, I found Apollo to be too similar to Nick. It's like they cookie cut him out or something, then made enough changes to "set him apart", if only barely. Sure, he's probably more hesitant, etc. than Nick was his first trial, but I still find too many similarities. If they're going to go with a new defense attorney (I spelled it out since DA means "district attorney", not "defense attorney"), at least make him something completely different. In every way.

Yes, I'm probably putting my foot in my mouth, but I don't even have to like Nick to dislike Polly, is my point. Curse of a writer, I guess. And though I adore Trucy, I have to admit the Polly/Trucy interactions are just reinvented Nick/Maya interactions. Sorry.

And this isn't a court of law, btw. I don't have to prove a thing, since any and all discussions of this nature are rather quite pointless. It's just opinions. There are no facts to be presented that don't have some sort of twist added to them, due to fandom/bias. Of course, I am not exempt from this, as I'm sure you can all tell.

Have I made you all dizzy yet? Guess I should go for now.
*chugs coffee, still piping hot*
Mmm... it burns so good.

Catch ya later.

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See, this is my opinion... I absolutely adored Apollo from the beginning. I want to find him and maul him with hugs.
And I find him a lot more attractive than Phoenix... please don't hurt me. v-v

because phoenix is more fun to play

Hmm.... I personally had an equal amount of fun playing Apollo... I like his personality... and I won't lie, I like the "CSI" type extras in AJ... they could have done so much more with the touch screen though... *sigh*

Yeah he's totally way better for choosing options off of a list with. I dunno, the way Apollo does it, I think the controls are different or something. I never quite got used to it.