I smell Apollo fanboys trying to say they're not.
I'm not going to say anything else.

---

Phoenix wasn't in the defendants lobby when Trucy burst in though, it was just Apollo as Phoenix had been requested to attend the Judge's lecture with Kristoph. So even if it was perfectly in character for Maya to burst in the writers would think 'whats the point?' after all the one she's looking for ain't there.

It'd be a matter of:
: Hey NIIIIIIIIIIIIICCCCCCCCK!!!
: ?
: ?
Oh...my bad *backs out*

I think your missing the point, I can't change what the writers did, it seems Nick should never have been in it at all but clearly they ain't trying to relate back to the old games and my theory is not totally without evidence, the rules of the courtroom dictate it as off limits its a perfect reason why Maya couldn't see it. The writers shouldn't need to account for every little problem the fans think up, we can create our own explanations, personally I'm willing to believe something bad happened between Maya and Nick but my theory may provide satisfaction for some people wanting to know where Maya was when he was being trialed. Not everything needs to be spoonfed to us we can think of our own answers.



Repeat topics happen for anything, some people just miss the correct topic the first time sometimes it's just cause of ambiguous titles, sometimes the original topic goes OT, this one is about Phoenix effectively but somehow has tangented off into a "Where is Maya" debate, two repeat topics is no big deal, especially since the WTH? Topic went off swiftly into jarbled singing (thanks partially to me ) and most of the people there are just saying go to "Why wasn't Maya in GS4" which only has...5 posts....so if the real topic only has 5 posts (from the usual suspects no less) I see no problem in saying that not EVERYONE is looking for Maya in GS4.



Like I said, Maya wasn't there at the time Phoenix got disbarred so for all we know something could already have happened between those two, maybe she snapped after her mother's funeral and went all moody and sulky in kurain. Maybe the workload as Kurain master (it was said they have heavy government connections after all) there's a billion reasons for her abscence take your pick. As for Gumshoe Phoenix and him only really met over cases, sure they hung out after cases but I see nothing odd about the abscence of gumshoe in his life (as much of a crime as it is).



Destroying a friendship so she doesn't have to reappear for a while, plus for all we know it could become a plot point in GS5 if it makes you happy. Looking at it from another angle what would be the point of including her significantly in Apollo's tale anyway, someone who probably knows little if anything of her.



Well they seemed like friends when they first met 7 years ago, meh maybe it was just me still your also forgetting Eldoon the crazy old noodle man liked him and his girl. Also I'm willing to bet his boss at the Borscht (sp?) bowl club is pleased with the revenue he brings in from his poker. Though he's not really mentioned.



Good point however so far:
One person I think has played before since she talks about what he was like before....
One person who thinks he was a good guy (if "jaded"), could be a good mentor if he was less mysterious and is uncertain whether he has friends or not.
I'll try posting the same Survey on Gaia, that should hopefully do it.


Ummmm ok hehe well the game had a new hero for new players essentially so I'd assume it's an accurate statement



Good point plus it's highly likely Edgeworth helped set up the Jurist system so I don't doubt they are probably still friends, still I forget what the point of it is, maybe its simply because they aren't in the same line of work anymore that they can't see as much of each other anymore.



Hehe I thought the fingerprint powder looked dodgy in his flat but ok turning the entire easter egg on it's head and possibly suggesting Maya doesn't get a reference....it could easily be Pearl who sent those DVD's or....at a horrible push Edgeworth since an official comic-like thing revealed he has an extensive knowledge of Samurai trivia, he's a closet fanboy



I still maintain that there would have to be some kind of friendship between them, after dining so frequently and after all they were friends before when Nick was a lawyer, it was just Kristoph's jealousy that broke it. As for the spy camera I'll try and explain that, but it's a complete contradiction, the Mason system in the past is all recorded footage but since you can see exactly what happens shortly after the trial when investigation is the last thing on his mind he has somehow acquired the spy camera he had specially made and sent to him by Ema either in a teeny tiny space of time (assuming he decided instantly like...the second he got disbarred that he'd need a camera) or either the camera had been kicking about his office from before the fated trial. Besides back then he might not have suspected Kristoph when he put on his camera, he might just have known he needed answers and decided to don the spy camera and go investigation.



Yar thats true, Nick does get his perspective in the end when he's playable but so what if Trucy know's more? She's been his daughter of seven years he trusts her more, still based on the quote saying everyone had turned against him, whats to say that he'd want to trust Maya anymore with any information like that. And even if she did know something, what could she do, if the suspicion was there before the very end the proof wasn't if she tried something on Kristoph he'd simply have her locked up for attempted assault or some similar charge. Besides if as you suggest he wants to protect her from Kristoph and knowing her as he does he wouldn't tell her anything and risk her doing anything crazy in case Kristoph gets her for it.



Couldn't you have just said it was ruled out and spared me the lecture?



I still get the impression your not satisfyed with the reference despite agreeing that it definately suggests Edgeworth is involved. I don't see the problem with it, it's an ideal reference, to new fans its Phoenix using his connections in the law industry to change something, to old fans it's specifically Edgeworth who helps Nick, I don't see the problem it's a good reference, nice and subtle.



No I didn't mean the writers, shoulda been more specific I meant the new fans...who wouldn't miss Maya and Edgeworth and so wouldn't be unhappy with the games. Hopefully they'll think Phoenix was pretty cool in AJ and will go buy his games so it's still the same effect without disappointing the new fans. It's the writers fault if they lose sleep cause of the problems when planning AJ.




Your 'rendition' strikes me as deluded, ignorant and biased. Towards the end you mention how you don't know much about his mentor so I think your trying to write from a new players point of view, but I don't think a new player would care as much about his previous escapades (beyond his disbarring which featured heavily) but the game never focused on Nick's life, it's not Phoenix Wright This Is Your Life! It's Apollo Justice, ace attorney they ain't going to summarize everything, they put references in to older characters quit your whinging about "Oh it's not summing up the past perfectly" besides Apollo's opinion of him is something like "Supposedly an ex-attorney of some reknown" so it seem's he's not studied Nick's previous cases (like Nick did with Mia's case in 3-4) so why would he be aware of it? Most of the game is told from Apollo's perspective and unless you wanted to ram the brief portion of 4-4 where Nick is playable with detailed looking back at his cases I don't see why your surprised they aren't mentioned much.



Actually only 4-4 and 3-5 combined all the cases together in the climax really but the others did fine on their own (I actually think 2-4 was the best) so thats more or less correct except it's only one case the bonus case has to outdo to make the damage. And yes it probably would be good but the way I see it they could just release another game with a whole set of Phoenix's cases and they can both interlink in each others stories, this way both get starring roles but completely separate from each other with the odd meeting together. This is the only way I can see the Nick-lawyer thing working and hell I don't see why they don't another game means extra money.



How didn't it? I think we can both agree that Kristoph had a bad style to defending, not guilty at all costs even forging evidence or pinning the blame on the wrong person. Kristoph tried to get Apollo to blame Olga Orly for the murder in 4-1 just so that the case would be over quickly and definately not guilty. Nick stopped him from working like that, consider how Nick's style of defending is so similar to Mia's style of defending, had Nick not intervened and became his new mentor, Apollo could have become the new Kristoph.
Plus I can see the mentor thing working out in the long term, its not that different from Mia-Phoenix, sure Phoenix can't possess girls and turn into them and sure he can't seduce and old pervert into talking about a case (hopefully) but he has his magatama and connections and can provide support and encouragement like he did in 4-1 he has his own ways to help Apollo. Then simply at one point he can simply go:

"Heh well done Apollo, I have nothing more to teach you but...there's someone I'd like you to meet" *introduce Thalassa for touching reunion scene*
*looks on and nods approvingly before walking into the sunset*

Though ideally I'd like a Phoenix/Thalassa pairing I don't think they'd do it so Nick stayed with Thalassa and the kids.

---

Initially I would have agreed with you, to a point, provided he's shown to have MEANINGFUL association with Maya and Edgeworth. But as I've been better able to put the game in perspective, I don't see them as likely to be able to make it work, partly because how confused the whole fanbase already is over the Jurist/MASON insanity, partly because it requires much more extra writing than just being a 'lawyer' to convey successfully.

The whole jurist thing was handled badly to start with, Phoenix has already corrupted it by putting in the 'impartial' Thalassa, very bad precedent for his 'new career.' Worse, too many players insist on taking the MASON Insanity literally, thinking Phoenix has already become Gant II and warped presentation of reality to jurists to his own ends. An unspecified job in reforming legal systems to be fairer, which occurs off-screen, might be tolerable. But we already have enough problems with people thinking Phoenix 'invented' the 'jurist system', which is obviously not really the case.

But yes, it's not the optimal outcome, but I can accept cutting our losses in this manner, provided the following: Phoenix gets to have some meaningful job in legal reform ie. increasing fairness and justice in the legal system which he performs off-screen, is shown by something to have meaningful interaction with Maya and preferably Edgeworth (who still exist, you know, though they don't actually have to appear as sprites on-screen) and generally stays absent from the action, but because he's away at his own fulfilling life, not because he's dead/was demoted further/moved to Siberia etc. And further interaction with the new cast should be minimised to avoid further damage to both him and Apollo. Pretend he sees Trucy off-screen. Part of this is, of course, Apollo opening Justice and Co.

Fulfilling' and 'meaningful' are the important keywords here. Phoenix needs a job which makes an actual difference in advancing true justice, anything less is an unacceptable insult to his character. Therefore, some boring paper-pushing law clerk job which makes no real difference in the world he would not enjoy - he was never in for legal theory and paperwork. He was always the kind of guy who seemed to need things at a human level - lazy in general, but intensely motivated to point of obsession when helping some friend or someone he has come to care about - but it's not an unreasonable jump to pretend he's matured to also see making change at a systems level to make legal systems fairer, provided he's actually given the empowerment to make such changes.

So, who is adverse to that, and why?

Minimising further involvement with new-arc chars is very important. (Yes, keep him as Trucy's father... OFF screen.) I think continuing down a similar path to GS4 with his character re. Apollo, other new chars etc. is a recipe for disaster for both characters. Practically everyone had some kind of problem with how he was handled in game 4, though the responses to this differ widely.

I will reply to you tomorrow...

The first case of 5-1 should be re-taking the bar exam, with a mock trial. He'll have forgotten all about law in those seven years, and so , or even would act as the mentor. After that, can have all the cases. Just so long as takes the exam.

Unfortunately thats one of the more plausible reasons for the starter case

---

icer wrote:

I will reply to you tomorrow...

I shouldn't make promises like that, tirrreddd...
Moving on...

Your theory is that Maya can't be in the defendant's lobby though. There's no actual rule that because Trucy only came in when Phoenix was absent, other people can only come in when Phoenix is absent. Anyway this whole line of questioning is a waste of time. Nothing implies Maya (or 'unspecified friend/s of Phoenix') is at the court or in any way involved, there is no evidence, therefore any theory pulled out of thin air has just as much to justify it as any other - ie. nothing to justify it at all.

The writers should present a believable overall scenario and universe to support reasonable fan assumptions though. Nothing implies characters are 'off-screen' and we can 'fill in gaps ourselves', everything implies they 'don't exist'. It's the entire policy at fault, and the policy needs to be dumped to make GS5 meet a mediocrity of reasonableness, either that or have Phoenix's role in the game be very limited in terms of interaction with new cast.

But it's a million years since release. People are always wanting to know where Maya or Edgeworth or both are. And there's not even anything to say anyway because we know that it's not a question we can answer in terms of plot. No, not 'everyone', but a lot of people are. I would not really care if Apollo vanished into thin air in GS5 with no proper explanation, but you, and various other people, would be incensed. Would you feel that there should be some kind of explanation or appearance to compensate for this strange state of affairs in GS6?

But they didn't 'destroy' the friendship IN the plot - if there had been some kind of explanation, though depressing, it would have been acceptable, because it would make things far more comprehendable as plausible.

Because GS4 was Phoenix's tale - far more than it was Apollo's. Not a wise idea, and not a good tale, but that's what the writers did. The entire plot revolved largely around Phoenix, and much of the game was spent, not as Apollo, but as 'Phoenix' (let's.. disregard MASON System 'problems') and as a 'jurist' (literal and otherwise.) Hence, believable characterisation for Phoenix was important. If such major, major changes have occurred inexplicably only 2 months later, to be believable, things have to be depicted as kind of plausible. The very fact that lots of people somehow still insist this is some kind of AU after 1-5 or entirely a simulation in the MASON System demonstrates that for all too many people it failed on this count. Adequately referencing, even non-specifically, such important characters in Phoenix's life would have gone a long way to depicting a plausible and believable scenario, even if only done in a very limited manner.

I don't see the point of endlessly trying to justify the writers - it's factual they made a decision that in terms of plot, referencing and consequence\s in the game universe, only Phoenix and the transitional Ema exist and the other characters from the old arc do not. The writers were not taking into account the old chars, thinking they are 'maybe' doing x, y and z in relation to Phoenix off-screen, and you inventing strange possibilities out of your imagination isn't going to change the fact that they adhered to this policy, and that it was arguably a mistake as it severely hampered the depiction of Phoenix's situation as plausible or believable after 3-5.

This just compounded the resentment many fans feel over the injustice and disrespect with which the writers arrogantly disposed of a character they liked - not only was the life's work, achievements, entire action of the trilogy and the powerful ending rendered essentially futile, but to add insult to injury, it wasn't even executed in a properly believable or comprehensible manner. (Come to think of it, the flashback trial is probably the poorest writing in the game, even worse than the latter half of 4-3.)

And it was disrespectful both to Phoenix (who brought the writers such a 4th game opportunity in the first place) and the existing fans of the series, since basically everything of the first 3 games gets taken away, we now only get to have the Apollo Universe instead, not as well, as the Phoenix arc. AJ's target market was apparently 'new players', which was all well and good - UNTIL fans of the original arc are forcibly lured into playing the new arc by virtue of 'returning' Phoenix -only to find that *sigh* it seems the original trilogy has been effectively erased from past history. Not everyone had a problem, but a huge amount of people did. That segment of the fanbase has been ripped off by the writers and marketers, which is why 'people keep insisting' that some kind of rectification is made. And of course, since we have no idea on GS5 and it's been so long, people get more invested and it will be harder to cut our losses if people find it disappointing. (When I got into this fandom people though GS5 info was 'about' to be released.. ugh)

And I'll address the rest of your points later. (sleep...)

Continuation!

Yeah, but it's irrelevant if he's shown to have random acquaintances with specified new-arc chars. The failure is not seeming to have UNSPECIFIED CLOSE FRIENDS aka Maya, Edgeworth, with which he is IMPLIED to associate with off-screen when doing who knows what in 'secret missions'. That would be an accurate depiction to Apollo's perspective, he actually HAS close friends in his life who he just doesn't see. Instead, it seems he's all alone or only associating with 'fakes' like Kristoph. That's not what people accept as a logical continuation from game 3.

I got the VERY STRONG impression that they weren't 'friends' before, maybe 'polite associates' at Bar Assn meetings - Kristoph HATED HIM so SET HIM UP, not much of a 'friend'. Kristoph probably pretended to be his 'friend' (to avoid suspicion) shortly after the disbarring (ugh.. this is an incomprehensibly painful picture), but Phoenix is said to have 'always suspected him'. I don't think it took 7 years, it just took that long of waiting for Kristoph to make a move for him to finally convict him with something.

Spy camera: since Ema seems to have only just returned (she doesn't recognize Trucy?) I thought maybe he got it as a parting gift at 1-5, but I suppose she could have sent a new one... the entire game is riddled with inexplicable timeline problems so we can't really use it to confirm or deny anything... but this is a complete tangent. I stand by this statement: Phoenix has suspected and 'investigated' Kristoph (and Zak, kind of, waiting for him on the poker circuit) since well before 4-1. He did not suddenly 'find out' he set him up at 4-4 or even 4-1, 4-4 was merely finally getting 'evidence' and opportunity to prove in court. However, this has no actual bearing on the topic at hand.


Of course not. I'm not letting you dismiss my reasoning as insane without demonstrating it isn't...

But I was just explaining, we're so grasping at straws that based on available evidence it's an extremely supportable theory. It may have seemed insane - but so does the entirety of Phoenix's 'new' situation as is more likely as a follow-on from 3-5.

Did you ever see any evidence of Maya likely to abandon Phoenix? Sure, the thing with her mother would have hurt - but so would have 1-2, 2-2 etc. and she didn't 'snap and turn against him'. It's a totally OOC assumption.

But Maya wouldn't 'turn against him'. Nothing we ever see of her character implies such a possibility and every precedent we ever see in the games implies against it. Not only has Phoenix believed in her the 3 times she's accused of murder, but there's the whole precedent with Misty Fey - disgraced by being declared a 'fraud' in court and broken by the lies and scandal concocted by the media and Redd White. Maya and Mia held no ill-will against her - Mia even dedicates her life to pursuing those who destroyed her - and what happened to Phoenix is virtually identical to Misty Fey. So Maya would be even more likely to make effort to support him, she doesn't want to risk the possibility of him being destroyed and disappearing in disgrace, she'd make a concerted effort not to abandon him.

[If it was Govt connections, then it's Maya getting jurist systems in BTW. Maybe with Edgeworth. Of course, the writers aren't kind enough to help imply this though]

Inventing strange other possibilities for her 'absence' is irrelevant. There is not evidence to support them and the entire depiction of her character and backstory in games 1-3 to rebut them. And it's the same with every other inexplicable plothole about old chars for which you invent some explanation. The weight of the entire previous arc is against most of them and no actual additional information is provided as evidence. It's the writers' policy as a whole at fault, creating plot and character failure in the main character of Phoenix. That's why, really, we need the return of old chars (or as a less desirable option, simply Phoenix to not appear again in the arc. Disappear without explanation. A lot of people wouldn't mind that precedent would they.)

Huh..
THE GAME DOES NOT SUGGEST EDGEWORTH WAS INVOLVED. This is the failure. No kind of implying that 'someone' helped him get the job (or anything else) is ever made. There is no reference, where one should exist.
oh man, are we clear, good...

I think a lot of 'new players' probably didn't like Phoenix. He's not presented in a particularly positive light, is he?

Eh? But this is what the writers are using to write GS4 Phoenix. This is the model they use for his character! It's not even an empty, caricature abstraction of his former self, it's just a...


The 4th (5th) case of every game is BUILT UP TO. eg game 1 gradually builds up the Edgeworth story, note 1-1 is a microcosm of 1-4, he even saves the other friend from the fateful class trial. No such build up happens for bonus cases.

*sigh* I don't think they can writer 4 cases of filler (Maybe make half the game a prequel with Mia, Diego and Assistant Phoenix?) . The one bonus case is merely designed to rectify things, that's why we need it, to make a slightly more reconcilable 'ending' in relation to his trilogy (3-5 was obliterated, so we can't use it any more). Then we leave Phoenix ALONE so we CAN focus on Apollo without ruining BOTH characters which is what I fear will happen if things proceed similar to GS4. But yeah, GK2 with Phoenix and Maya showing up to do whatever (help Edgeworth?) would probably be even more reasonable, IF it is written, which of course is only a vague hope. I wish the writers would just commit to this, it would mean the end of the Phoenix vs Apollo and the end of dividing the fanbase. We can all just buy all the games (or actually ignore ones we didn't like) without them ruining other parts of the series. RE-separate the arcs! That's how it should have been in the first place and why we got all these stupid problems, trying to half-combine them without trying properly was a terrible mistake.


But the entire dynamic of their relationship is absolutely nothing like Phoenix-Mia and was not intended to be, I believe they deliberately made them as such to differentiate, actually I don't even think this point is debatable. GS4 Phoenix can never have a functional mentor relationship with Apollo even remotely resembling Mia-Phoenix unless there's an extreme change in his situation, such as again being a lawyer.

I already said in the last 3 posts that Phoenix was beneficial to Apollo's career in the SHORT term, remaining mentor in the medium-long term will cease to be beneficial and degenerate, unless there are significant changes in dynamic.

So, I'm curious, what do people think of this idea... just officially declare the AJ arc an AU? (I'm not suggesting it, just wondering what people think). NO IT DOES NOT MEAN APOLLO DIDN'T HAPPEN. It's just an alternate universe/reality, one where Apollo reigns supreme, which happened 'as well'. Is this even worse than giving Phoenix a paltry bonus case, or re-making him a lawyer, which so many people are vehemently against? It's a kind of insane proposition.. but so was the MASON System (and the Bad Ending of 2-4 really.) Because the writers' 'vision' for this arc was really [supposedly] about Apollo, inventing some thing about Phoenix was just something they did because they were told to, really.. so we can't say it will curtail whatever 'vision' they have for this arc. And people seem so against anything positive involving Phoenix.

Seems to me like this is the only really feasible option from this point. GS4 may have been a good short-term move for the series -- a new cast attracted new fans, and old fans came back to see what happened to Phoenix -- but now, with a divided series and a divided fanbase, it's going to be difficult to come up with a single game that everyone is going to be willing to spend money on. I wouldn't be surprised if Gyakuten Kenji sets the stage for another trilogy that is an AU to GS4. That way, the writers can downplay Phoenix in GS5 and beyond, Apollo fans will have their trilogy, and lawyer!Phoenix fans will have theirs.

Really, it's like having a beautiful piece of art that attracts tons of attention, and you want more attention, so you set it on fire. The spectacular light show may draw a crowd, but when it's over, what have you got left to work with? :/

Phoenix retaking the Bar Exam sounds a plausible starter case.
"Let's see if I remember how to do this...."

---

I'd accept it becoming an AU, but ONLY if it is no longer the main Ace Attorney series. That is Phoenix's territory, and Apollo shouldn't have been there to begin with. "Ace Attorney *Insert Cheesy Distinguishing Extension here, such as Adventure, Future, X, Zero, Xtreme, etc.*" should be seperate from the TRUE "Ace Attorney" games starring our Feenie.

Apollo is boring, Phoenix is interesting, end of. GS4 was essentially just:

:wtf life iz boaring i hav no munny i am feeling tyerd my kords of steal r week
:hai slaav werk on dis case
:aw nooo
:haha dats how i rol now do it
:oh ok
:*says something about panties or magic or whatever*

WIth the exception of 4-3, which was a bit different, but still, even in 4-1, Phoenix is the one who wanted Apollo to defend him.

Trucy was all right, I suppose, but it would help if Apollo was more interesting.

I also think it's ridiculous how they made Phoenix into a hobo and took his job. What I ask is why? Don't we as fans deserve a bit better than that? It's also an insult that it's only Phoenix. No one else. What's the point? They could have just made up a new mentor character with the same personality as Hobo Phoenix and be done with it.

Whatever. If it's Apollo's "time," I might not buy GS5. At the very least, they could let Phoenix be a lawyer again, even if you can't play as him. Maybe bring in a few old characters to show that he isn't totally alone, or something. Just give us Feenie fans some love.

And, again, Apollo was boring. Flat as a plank, and does nothing but be ordered around by Phoenix all the time.

Last edited by DarkRidley on Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Well, we shouldnt compare Apollo after only 1 game with how Phoenix is now, he's had 3/4 games. After 1 game, I surely liked Phoenix, after 2 or 3 I liked him even more and loved him. In AA1 Phoenix seemed a bit uptight to me (IIRC) even though he was only 24.
Apollo has had little development so I'd rather see how things are in GS5. At the very least Apollo is a promising character. His story hasnt really been fully told yet.

---

Sorry I've been gone too long...studying and exhaustation it's a miracle I'm even doing this one instead of saying let's let bygones be bygones.

Anyway to deal with arch nemesis, Icer's long weary post I'll tackle his points in RANDOM ORDER!!!



Yadda yadda big whoop, all I care is that you admit it's a possibility thats ruled out, thats all I need to know people can try and look around it all they like it's still ruled out.



Ease up on the hostility, we're clear now but that doesn't mean I think your wrong. I think it's all a matter of interpretation and personal opinion on this one, since you didn't like that maybe you'd like this? "A prosecutor should be cool of wit and furrowed of brow" Ema describing what a prosecutor should be like, she was an Edgey fangirl and I think it describes Edgy well...sure it's not confirming his existance but I think the Mason system one does that but meh, the jury's out on this one.



You've not really read my reasoning...I can tell seeing as it counteracted your opinion. I don't get what your trying to say since I think otherwise and well...you haven't really explained why I shouldn't in this quote.




Again you say these things but you don't say why, Law is a large and complex business, is it so inconcievable that Phoenix might be able to point out some clause in a book somewhere that Apollo is looking for, or expose a loophole? Or even spot a contradiction he might have missed. The main lawyer is always flawed they always miss obvious contradictions that have to be pointed out by an assistant or similar person. If you mean they can't have the same kind of relationship because Mia was dead then sure I agree but I'm not going to write Nick off as a bad mentor just because Mia can make herself useful in different ways because of her.....unusual disposition.



Note I said 3-5 and 4-4 utilised ALL the cases, for most games the previous cases have little relevance to the final case but these were the first to really combine something from everything (Agreed 2-4 is my favourite too) and if 2-4 can single handedly be the greatest trial without any prior relevance (ok the Berry Big top was mentioned briefly but that was nothing important) from that game shows how one case can make or break a game. One bonus trial could easily overwhelm the final case.

Still I never suggested 4 cases of Filler....I'm talking like a real game with fully prepared cases, it'd be like how Pokemon always release two games with different pokemon, two completely separate games with different cases, sure he may overshadow Apollo from his own game but at least he won't interfere in Apollo's game as much you know A game where Apollo can flourish on his own and a game Phoenix's fans can watch him rise to greatness again. This would allow you to bring all the folks you love back into it as well so everyone is happily. Ideally both games would be equal in greatness and it's perfectly possible and it's profitable. I don't see the problem.



Unless all the new players are justice freaks I think he did look good, sure he fabricated evidence in the start but it wasn't used as decisive evidence and despite playing him down, his name was cleared at the end and he was a good daddy to Trucy (at least she thought so) and he helped Thalassa find her children and reunited long lost siblings....it seems to me like he's the AA version of Jim'll Fix It.


+ your following 3 paragraphs.

You say abandon, thats just one possibility, she could be taking Pearls on holiday, dealing with a little paperwork at Kurain my point is anything could happen that could explain her abscence. Clearly the video reference suggests she is still friends with Nick so I don't see what your worked up about. For all we know she could be on holiday or taking a year on some spiritualist training thing.
Your acting on, from what I can distinguish, this philosophy:

"I'm not standing in China, I can't see it with my eyes, I hear stories and tales of this place, but I cannot see it because I am there, it must not exist"
I mean I know seeing is supposedly believing but your viewpoint seems a little extreme. You think just because Maya didn't physically appear in GS4 she don't exist?



I beg to differ, it's completely relevant, Phoenix is making new friends, he's a freakin regular at Eldoon's that implies more than just a random acquaintance and you saying that the failure is Maya and Edgeworth not appearing seems to me to be entirely your opinion, there's no failure in that and again despite what you claim, the game is NOT intentionally about Nick, it's about Apollo hence his name on the case therefore they shouldn't need to look in depth at Nick's friend's he's not the main character intentionally. Instead it's focusing on Apollo's new friends and foes.



Ahem....Impressions are entirely opinion, what we know is that they dined on a regular basis, regarded each other as friends before the falling out over Zak choosing his attorney (which Phoenix was unaware of) I don't see why Kristoph would hold a grudge after his plan was successful, he ruined Phoenix mission accomplished and sure maybe he stayed friends to keep an eye on him but why would he be mad, he had his victory and was friends before with him, if anything I'm surprised he didn't feel the slightest bit of guilt once he'd calmed down. Besides if he really hated Phoenix....why didn't he just ignore the phonecall and say he had it on silent or something later, instead he tried to get the blame pinned on someone else when he could have just not taken the case and let Phoenix go to his certain doom under some other attorney?

As for the AU Idea, thats just plain stupid. Having to resort to alternate universes to me reeks of bad writing, something saved for fanficcers and similar things, they've made their bed now they have to sleep in it if they wave a magic wand and say it's all a dream its just so unprofessional. I mean come on....the "It was all a dream" thing is the reason Dallas is NOTORIOUS in my opinion making it all seem as if it never happened is just...shameworthy.



Meh I've already suggested that the friendship might not have been destroyed and the video reference suggests she was friends after all there's other reasons that she could be away. See above.



It's a billion years since AA's release still there will be new people playing it and asking things about it. And the reason I would be enraged is because GS5 is still in Apollo's arc, I mean theres a whole thing about how his story is just beginning, I believe Apollo himself said something along the lines of "This part of my story is finished" implying that there's more parts. So I'd be EXPECTING another which is why I'd be enraged, it would be a plothole then. I KNEW GS3 was the ending of Phoenix's part so I wasn't expecting another one. Hell I didn't expect Phoenix at all in GS4, I was surprised to see that the person behind the hat and stubble was Phoenix.



Oh SO wrong, it wasn't intended as Phoenix's tale, sure Apollo helped him out but you only play as Phoenix and a Jurist for one case and Phoenix barely plays a part, which you complain about so much. He's usually offscreen doing stuff so what would be the real point of bringing others in if the only character they bear any connection to in Apollo's tale doesn't appear that much himself. As for the other claims of AU, you've seen how unreasonable our fans can be with their yaoi pairings and such, they just have wishful thinking because they long for the old ways. I don't see why we can't embrace the new series with open arms really. Though I do prefer the music in Phoenix's tale more than Apollo's tale but meh maybe it'll improve in AJ2.



No they shouldn't, some fans consider PhoenixxEdgeworth a reasonable assumption, does this mean the writers have to cater for this need, oh wait! Some prefer PhoenixxMaya pairings hmm...writers will need to include that too, and before you say "I said REASONABLE assumptions" how do you know your opinion is even regarded as "REASONABLE" by the writers, you said that AJ was written without Phoenix originally but then Capcom insisted he be included, to me this suggests the writers were perfectly happy thinking of Phoenix and friends as little as possible, so they are forced to bring in Phoenix does that mean they need to bring in the rest of his cast too? To me THAT is unreasonable.



No I'm suggesting Trucy broke the law by bursting into the defendants lobby. Not that people can only come in when Nick is absent.
Your suggestion is there's no evidence that she's there.
There's no evidence she's NOT there and furthermore I've provided reasoning why she wouldn't make an appearence. Both our opinions are equally valid. Your right I don't really have anything to justify....but neither do you so I don't feel so bad about it.

Alright now I can focus on my film

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