All of the major old cast should come back. And none of the new. Drop a bridge on them, put them on a bus, have the bus crash, have them ascend to a higher plane of existance offscreen, just as long as they don't come back to derail Phoenix.

This what annoys me. *is resisting temptation to post a sentence containing "Machi"*

A wise man once said (KHF, specifically) "Apollo's the main character now, DEAL WITH IT!" Trying not to sound so mean, it would take a while for people to adjust to Apollo. But, yes, it's Apollo's game. Finite. Phoenix should not be playable. None of the main cast should come back. And they aren't.

I don't mind a couple'a minor characters, or, on second thought, one major character. But yes, there are questions to be answered. If you can't accept the facts, I suggest having a look at KHF's video, before I explode. Again.

You know, I reckon I should make "Phoenix Cast for GS5" and "Apollo Cast for GS5" sig badges.

I must disagree. Apollo is to Phoenix as Scrappy is to Scooby-Doo: a horrible, horrible mis-step by the crew. Except worse. Much, much, much worse.

Because Phoenix was, above all, a better, more original character. Apollo was just a younger, spotlight-stealing version who's annoying because Phoenix is RIGHT THERE.

Because Phoenix was, above all, a better, more original character. Apollo was just a younger, spotlight-stealing version who's annoying because Phoenix is RIGHT THERE. Sound familiar? Look at Scrappy Doo. Same thing, but done to a different character. To very much the same effect, on most people.

Let me get this straight. You simply hate Apollo because he's not Phoenix? End of story, don't care about his personality?

Let me get this straight. You simply hate Apollo because he's not Phoenix? End of story, don't care about his personality?

So your saying Apollo is srappy doo????

(BTW, don't mean anything personal by this, just want to say my thoughts in the matter)

But what if Apollo is better? I understand that people get annoyed that the main character has been torn away from the games, but still, Apollo has at least one game ahead of him. If they add alot to his character there, who knows, he might just be better. Phoenix's arc is over (my opinion - I don't see any evidence that points to him becoming a lawyer again, except his "joke" at the end.). You could call Apollo a spin off to the ending series, but I reckon you should at least give Apollo a chance.

Let me say what I think: Capcom wanted Gyatuken Saiban to be a trilogy, so decided to keep it that way. However, they wanted to make more games, so they just created Apollo and made him the main character.

It doesn't matter if he's "better". Azrael (Bruce's replacement in the 90's when he was paralyzed) was a "better" Batman, but who remembers him? Nobody. Because he wasn't THE Batman, that will ALWAYS be Bruce Wayne. Why? Because we CARE about Bruce. Same thing goes to Apollo- Sure, he's a good attorney, hell, he may be a good character, but I don't care about him, I care about Phoenix Wright.

Then they shouldn't have kept the name, and they sure as hell shouldn't have completely derailed Phoenix to do so. See, Apollo may have had potential to be a fulfilling character, had he been introduced better. Had they made a real transition game. Perhaps had they started with him as a student or apprentice under Phoenix in a real GS game, where the cases were half and half split- on the job training for Apollo- and then expanded him into a spin-off, that would be easier to swallow, and most importantly not have robbed Phoenix of having a happy ending.

Is Phoenix regarded as 'old cast' since he appeared in GS4?????
Does this mean all discussion re Phoenix in GS5 goes here... or not?

Phoenix, Ema, Judge, Payne etc are all fine as they are/would be returning characters. Lotta, Maya, Gumshoe, Edgeworth etc would be best kept to this topic.

Phoenix should not be playable. None of the main cast should come back. And they aren't.

It's happening all over again...
*start playing Katamari Damacy theme*

This what annoys me. *is resisting temptation to post a sentence containing "Machi"*

A wise man once said (KHF, specifically) "Apollo's the main character now, DEAL WITH IT!" Trying not to sound so mean, it would take a while for people to adjust to Apollo. But, yes, it's Apollo's game. Finite. Phoenix should not be playable. None of the main cast should come back. And they aren't.

-Phoenix specifically in GS5/future of series

That would be done in this topic.

It seems that every topic devoted to the old cast (Maya and Pearl and such) ends up being all about Phoenix vs Apollo anyway, since half the complaints about GS4 Phoenix revolve around the fact that his friends don't show up. So having two separate threads for that is already redundant in my eyes.

And this is what annoys me.

I hate to sound like a broken record but... we don't really know "who's" game this is going to be until the cast is confirmed for GS5. We have no information about GS5, so until we know who's going to be in the game, you can't really throw statements around like that like it's the truth.

It has been said a ton of times but it's still a fact. The GS team still has a ton of time to take a complete 180 and make a game about Grossberg Law Offices (I'm not serious, but I still hope. I just want to give an example) just because they feel like it. They could have continued with Phoenix (I don't think that 3-5 wrapped up EVERYTHING, and AJ threw up more questions about the old cast due to their disappearance.) but they decided to go with Apollo. Now I think we have a problem: Loose ends everywhere. The Fey family story isn't completely finished up, and Apollo's past just left a huge hole in the story. So what do they clear up in the next game? That will probably be their decision.
I still think that GK will be the old cast's refuge, and GS5 will keep Phoenix as a mentor type that isn't there 3/4 of the time.
The McD

Really, it's like having a beautiful piece of art that attracts tons of attention, and you want more attention, so you set it on fire. The spectacular light show may draw a crowd, but when it's over, what have you got left to work with? :/

So you don't expect Phoenix to have a possibility to turn up in GS5 sans friends? The entire issue of how to handle Phoenix in the newer games is separate from whether his friends appear in the 'new' arc, since Hobo!Phoenix is irrefutably a 'new cast character' returned in a major way to game 4. Confine it to another single thread to avoid redundancy, but it's really a very separate topic.

.. so does this mean topics specifically only on the 'Phoenix Issue' (not 'old chars') will be closed?

Topics about Phoenix in GS5 and topics about the original cast in GS5 always become the same wall of words that has been flooding this board since it's instatement. We're keeping that all consolidated. So yes, those topics will be locked.

I like some of the old characters to come back though, we have some loose ends to tie up for that.

and : What happened when Phoenix got disbarred

and : What happnened during those 7 years? Germany maybe?

: She would be out of jail by the time Phoenix got disbarred I think. How did she feel after finding out?

We want to know, right?

Then maybe it would be best to change the title of this topic to something more like 'Handling Phoenix and Old Cast in GS5?' Because nobody can claim Phoenix is 'old cast'.

Wow, this is off topic again (old chars, Phoenix is not an 'old cast!') (Not anymore, but that's beside the point now) Some people still don't seem to understand why we don't just concentrate on Apollo and the 'new' arc without caring about whatever happens with Phoenix (Once again, I can only speak for myself, but I actually don't care what happens with good old Phoenix. He's disbarred and he's unhappy with his current "job". He may get his badge back or maybe he becomes the new cook at the Borscht Bowl Club, I don't care. It's the characters SURROUNDING Phoenix's era that I am interested in.). Ugh I don't have time for a decent explanation now but let's try some explanation: (I think I will have enough to write with this explanation, more wasn't neccesary.)

Phoenix's original story was finished. I don't think there could have been a Phoenix Wright 4, 3-5 was a great case precisely because it was such an overwhelmingly good resolution and ending for him and his cast. (I agree to a point, since the credits and the end of the case seemed to clear everything up, with the speculation being only minor.) The loose ends were only leeway to which fans could support their own preferred conclusions (eg. the fact he has no specifically canon official girl/boyfriend) (Never really thought of that, but I'm not the one for pairings) all I would have liked to know is Godot is alive (Me too.). In fact, the entire trilogy stands as a masterpiece of completion. This is part of the reason it was so unadvisable to effectively dispose of it. (Exactly.)

The writers could have made a separate masterpiece revolving around a new lawyer, another story standing alone in the same style as Phoenix Wright, and this would have been their intention. Even after the marketing department insisted Phoenix be returned to the game, they still had the option of making his involvement be fairly minimal and not wreak havoc on the masterpiece of his 1-3 trilogy, the very quality product which has driven the franchise and even motivated the production of the 4th game. (Here's the point where I wanted to get into: The 4th game basically did not just destroy the trilogy, but it also busted new holes due to Phoenix's hobo-turn. I think the game script was written exactly the way so that when everything stays the same, the story is done. But now these new hole get open, e.g: "Master of Kurain and the office manager of Wright & Co. Law Offices." was what Maya said in the credits. She explicitly states that she will continue to work at Nick's office. Now: No office, no Maya - where did they go? We know that Nick lost his badge and his office in that one trial there, but why did Maya then leave? Did she think that office + master didn't work out for her so she dumped one of them? If not, why did she then leave? Because she believed that Nick forged evidence? Etc. etc. yadda yadda, the tirade goes on. tl, dr: 4th game shatters perfectly fitting story, end quote.)

Instead, they decide Phoenix must return to a fundamental role - fundamentally negative role. I suppose it's a variation on the Mia role in 1-3. Mia is dead, but her spirit and personality live on, her dignity and reputation mostly intact, treated with respect by the writers. Phoenix is physically alive - but suffers a fate arguably worse as the writers go a long way in effecting character assassination, disrespect, injustice, and killing off his former life and relationships - ie the very trilogy which was the core product supporting the success of the franchise! It's all gone - and it's not salvageable. (No objections here. Phoenix's character was reduced to a very different persona, and "killing off his former life and relationships" without any explanation whatsoever (maybe I missed something? I think not.) was a terrible mistake. "Hier liegt der Hund begraben", so to speak. That's the punchline, the one important point which I'm staying on.)

Unlike Mia, to whom we only saw briefly before her untimely death, we have formed a deep attachment to Phoenix over the trilogy. Unlike Mia, what has been destroyed is the very 3 games we ourselves worked so hard to play through. And it doesn't even seem useful because the whole scenario was effectively pointless - it just took spotlight off Apollo instead of helping develop him as a new character. The whole exercise was effectively unproductive. (Ayup.)

Such injustice might have been acceptable if it was reversed at the end, but at the end there's little sense of redemption for Phoenix - it's not even confirmed he'll be a lawyer again. Thus we expect some measure of such redemption in game 5 - but we are supposedly unreasonable in wanting this as Phoenix is supposed to be further beaten down into his role as Spiritually and Functionally Dead Mentor. (That's also one of the points I was on to. The game has yet to be planned - I think - they're busy with GK at the moment, then comes GS5. We don't know yet if the injustice will be reversed.) The problem is, Phoenix continually shows signs in game 4 that he is unhappy with the disempowerment and injustice of his 'new role'. Though of course, since this whole unfortunate exercise derailed Apollo's rise as 'foremost 'LAWYER' - THE Ace Attorney' (Here's another big problem, I see that much. Bringing Lawyer!Phoenix back vs. keeping Apollo the NEW Ace Attorney. If Phoenix returns, there has to be some kind of solution that explains how Apollo is better than Phoenix (at lawyering) to satisfy the lead role of Apollo) in the minds of all players in the 'new' arc, anything which might advance Phoenix's status is met with bitter opposition by some Apollo fans (who probably also think Apollo was treated unjustly by having Phoenix take up spotlight with so much [negative] attention drawn to him and not Apollo. There is value in this argument, the mis-handling of Phoenix was an injustice to Apollo as well.) (There are only very few ways of getting Apollo up to the high status. One is keeping Hobo-Nick, another is killing any of the different Phoenixes off (Lawyer or Hobo, irrelevant here) Deep doo-doo either way)

I quote another thread:


Said beautiful piece of art (the trilogy) was actually the core product of the franchise. Instead of making another, largely separate work of art which old and new fans could appreciate, they merely burned up the old one to make some bizzare hybrid spectacle. The Phoenix Wright trilogy could have been another product underpinning the overall franchise, but now, it's difficult to appreciate it when we know that the 'artwork' built up over the course of the trilogy is going to end sacrificed in a futile pile of ashes less than 2 months later, supposedly without expecting any of it to be salvageable. Such an issue means it's difficult to enjoy the new 'trilogy', particularly if Phoenix remains in such a negative position, a pressing reminder of what both he and we have so unjustifiably lost in the mishandling of the 'new arc.' (Ayup.)

And the GS team has had a ton of time to make GS5, but all we're getting is an Edgeworth game, an obvious attempt to placate Phoenix-era fans while still able to skirt the Phoenix-Apollo issue. I'm confident that it's still possible to have an outcome which does justice to both Phoenix and Apollo and their respective fanbases and target markets, but that's for another post (and topic) (I do hope so too. No problems here.).

Am I the only one who liked Hobo nick's character and found it really interesting?

I mean, it took some getting used to, but I really liked this new twist to an already amazing character...

Am I the only one who liked Hobo nick's character and found it really interesting?

I mean, it took some getting used to, but I really liked this new twist to an already amazing character...

Phoenix himself is great, what the writers did to his life, situation, status and reputation is unjustifiable.

Sorry to burst your bubble here guys, but IT'S A VIDEO GAME!
Aren't you taking this thing too far?, I like a good discussion as much as the next guy but this one has become dull and repetitive and frankly it's just about the "unfair treatment of a fictional life of a fictional character of a bloody video game", it's not like we're discussing the future of global pollution here.

But even when those he loved were in danger, he considered the LAW more important. Yes, yes I know that he couldn't let murders go free and all, but put yourself in that situation and pretend it was someone you love dearly. Would you do what he did, even if in the end it turned out all right?