1-5 did not obliterate the entire older arc. There were a few time problems with regards to game 2, but it didn't wreak any significant changes on anything in the other games (and made Edgeworth's leaving slightly more explained, really, it was constructive rather than destructive.) This is not a valid comparison.

RobbieValant, I don't think the entire AJ should be retconned, just declared an AU or better reconciled with original arc. Sure, it maybe should never have happened (in that format anyway), but it did, and has acquired some fanbase and drained a lot of marketing resources. It's still a marketable property in itself too (I assume). People who play it first tend to like it, since they are unaware of its ironic 'double meaning'; that was merely a 'gift' to existing fans of the series. (Damaging Phoenix and the associated trilogy was stupid for the franchise as even after GS4 he is still a more 'marketable' product than Apollo, I suspect.)


I beg to differ. Being disbarred might have been an okay plot if it was handled entirely differently, but it was totally mishandled. For example, Apollo could have stayed with Kristoph and exposed and prevented the 'disbarring Phoenix' plot of Kristoph himself, either before or shortly after he ruined Phoenix, Phoenix remaining with dignity mainly off-screen (and retaining a perception that his old arc didn't just 'vanish',) but Apollo gaining fan support because he is resourceful enough to save Phoenix and established as a character with a worthwhile and separate reputation.

(Hey, Maybe that's an idea for an AU execution: Young Apollo on work experience subverts the disbarring plot happening back after 3-5. It can be the first or flashback case of an AU but Apollo-centric GS5!)

But the way it was executed, all Phoenix did was make Apollo look like a stupid pawn, take all the spotlight (in a negative manner, we spent the whole game wondering/being annoyed over what happened to Phoenix) development of Apollo was compromised to try and do something with the 'disbarred Phoenix and jurist system' plot. The whole plot and Apollo thing would have worked better if Phoenix had not been disbarred or at least had a different role closer to his Phoenix Arc incarnation. Apollo fans are always complaining Phoenix 'took over the game.'

RobbieValant, I'm not sure Phoenix Wright '4' (5) is really more than a stretch if you retcon GS4, 3-5 was an explicit and excellent ending (making the 2month later fiasco even dumber), I can only see room for further case/s which resolve the lack of Maya, Edgeworth and the existence of the previous arc in reality in GS4 for those chars. I suppose they could be augmented with a trip back in time (Mia as lawyer) to make a 4-case game, but it's pushing things a bit. Pretty much, if GS4 'didn't happen', then 3-5 should have been left alone. However, GK takes place partly 'after' 3-5 (we're yet to find out if that game refs GS4 at all - that will be an interesting point.)

(They should have just made GK to start with instead of GS4, Edgeworth could have introduced a jurist system)


First I'll say I don't think they should 'scrap', at worst AU the arc but:

-They can pretend GS4 didn't happen instead of trying to fix it. Less work.
-Makes Phoenix and the original trilogy marketable again, and by extension, the Edgeworth game, and more GK games if they make them. GS4 puts a bad, bad taste on the trilogy. (And maybe Edgeworth is more marketable than Apollo at this time. People who play GK first will then want to see the trilogy, not the Edgeworthless GS4.)
-All the fans upset by what the game did to their enjoyment of the original arc are happy.
that said, getting rid of it altogether is stupid as I assume they are still making money out of it and it would quite rightfully annoy fans of the new characters and new players. Also pretending it didn't exist (and not providing new material which contradicts it) rather than declaring official AU still implies it happened but they tried to 'forget'.


Yes, and that's why this problem has to be resolved satisfactorily by the series, with regards to both 'sides'. Something has to be done to continue an Apollo-centric Apollo game for those fans, and also something to acceptably reconcile Phoenix closer to his trilogy (acceptable to Phoenix fans, that is). Please try and keep this in mind...

GS5: Zeus Truth. Apollo gets jailed for a noise law infraction with his Chords Of Steel and disbarred. All cast of previous 4 games have 'disappeared'. Maybe Edgeworth gets to turn up by virtue of GK though

Retcons should only be used on bad games

Apollo Justice is not a bad game

Therefore, a retcon is not needed.

the end

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Reposting, since it's in the most missed spot of any forum page. >_>

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Okay. I just wanted to make you happier.


Thanks.

...By now, Ace Attorney's fanbase has grown from the fans of an obscure adventure game to a massive community of fans. There's no way to please everyone. I can only wonder what choice could satisfy the majority of people..

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You speak the truth. The BIG truth.

Slowly but effectively, a full-fledged and huge debate was born. There can't even be said there are just two sides to it because it's a pretty general idea. There are people who want people to face it and let the game flow. There are people who want a bit of fanservice here and there. There are people who want canon discontinuity. And there are more, and more.

And the reason why the debate even exists, is because people keep missing one point. There is a reason why there exists "Phoenix fans" and "Apollo fans". People have different opinions.But that concept is being largely ignored. Most people are on a violent lookout for a win-win sitaution in which everybody (But, specially, themselves) are pleased. But Capcom can't turn water into wine. Capcom doesn't make miracles. Capcom can NOT please the whole fanbase.

And, in my opinion, the least they can do is a good plot. No discontinuity, no fanservice excpet when it's 100% okay. Just, a good plot. If Phoenix must remain as a hobo, make it useful for the plot. If Phoenix must get his badge back, make it useful for the plot. And lastly, on old characters, bring back whoever will help in a good plot, or not interfere with it while giving who wants it some fanservice.

That way, not everyone will be pleased, but every other way doesn't please everybody either.
That way, we (At least most of us) will be playing a good game that makes sense and is worth playing.
That way, people who want their fanservice get their fanservice and the game remains as a game that isn't worth playing just because of fanservice.
That way, no bias is involved, so it does please a good part of the fanbase. I guess.

I think Scorpion is getting onto something here.

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THAT IS THE MISTAKE.
AJ should have, at MOST, been a one-off spinoff without Phoenix. Then, MAYBE gotten a sequel if people liked him.

As to the "j00 never played the game, n00b, so you're not all0w3d t0 have an opinion at all!!!!!!111!" people-
I have read fairly extensive spoilers, and know enough to know I will hate this game. IF I ever DO play it, it will be the same way I did the Spider-Man ruining One More Day- a borrowed or used copy at best, shadier methods at worst, because Capcom is not getting a CENT of my money for ruining Phoenix. Not one penny. Now, if they make a sequel and I find they redeem Phoenix, they MIGHT have a buyer. Now, I'm not one for fan service- it ruined comics in the nineties when fans liked "DARK AND EDGY!!!!"- but this is fan disservice of the highest level- Fan repellent, if you will. And that is not easily forgivable.

Please read this, Robbie. Not just the Edit.

And you know what? You remind me of the kid who doesn't want to eat their vegetables becaus they don't like the way they looked or smelled. You don't try it and you're like "EWW! IT'S ALL ICKY BECAUSE ITS ALL DIFFERENT!" You may do all the research you want on that brocolli, but you can't properly judge it until you try it.

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Well, lookee here, baseless personal insults! A sure sign of a skilled debater. *eye roll* Well, if you want to get down to that level, you sound like one of those people on FanFiction.net who writes atrocious fics with Mary Sues/Gary Stus who outdo the entire canon cast, asks for reviews, and then goes psycho "I NEVER ASKED FOR THIS! YOU SUCK!" on the least bit of constructive criticism.

On a relevant note, yes, I can. I can judge because I follow these games first and foremost for story and characters. And if the story and characters are crap, it doesn't matter what you put on top of it, the game will be crap. And though the cases are okay, and inventive- perhaps even acceptable, if they removed the sheer injustice that is - the decision to make it part of PW continuity was a horribly stupid move.

I'd totally recommend playing the game.

I mean, it's even kind of fun, once you get in to it.

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Robbie, I thought your opinion was justified until I read you don't even have Apollo Justice. You cannot judge Apollo as a character, you cannot see if you like hobo phoenix as a character. I'd advise you stick to the GS1-3 boards and quit this pointless flaming and trolling, over a game you haven't even played. Icier actually adds something to these kinds of topics, you however do not.

Hey, people,. come on...

Is reposting your insults really necessary? You didn't say why, so it didn't add anything to the discussion...

Okay, with regards to RobbieValiant: I think he does have some justification to have some of his opinions on this issue considered relevant, even if he hasn't played the game; he is NOT qualified to make, say, judgements on Apollo's character or the quality of GS4, he is, however, allowed to judge the CONCEPT of what the writers did to Phoenix's character and previous arc to drag him into the 'new' arc. Basically this, with 'previous arc erasure' thrown in.

So, RobbieValiant; would you have been okay if Apollo Justice had been (as originally planned) a totally separate series with no connection to Phoenix without compromising his arc and character? But GS4 was made, so it's too late (and unfair to Apollo fans) to demand it never existed, AU is the limit of decency in that regard. Taking such an extremist position to such combatitive lengths isn't really helping anyone (and I can say the same for extremist Apollo fans, I'd be way less inclined to complain over this if there wasn't such an overwhelmingly extremist 'You MUST like Apollo INSTEAD of Phoenix' kind of tone around here, almost like that April Fools Day thing is the actual policy of the site.)

The main issue here is regardless of 'new plot' fans could conceivably enjoy in future there was a perfectly nice and complete 'old' plot in the form of the original trilogy which people enjoyed. This was ruined to make the 'new' plot to too far an extent to make acceptable, and it really didn't seem to help the plot because it just compromised, not effected, it being an Apollo-centric plot. As for whether fans should just suck this up and not feel justified to question it: well Phoenix's return to the arc was entirely demanded by the marketing department as a hook for old fans into the new series. However, I somehow doubt they expected the 'hook' to be so negative. I don't think any of the 'old fans' (ie. people who played the trilogy) actually enjoyed them ruining Phoenix's previous arc that way, and this was the very negative 'fanservice' the writers wrote specifically to cater to fans of the original trilogy. It's difficult to believe the writers thought we'd actually enjoy it, either. No wonder some people are mad.

We can't say whether or not AJ was conclusively to have to be regarded a 'full fledged part of the exact series and timeline' because it's unprecedented.


The most extremists can not be simultaneously pleased. However, there are ways to please a greater proportion of fans, rather than 'just' rabid Apollo fans or whatever.

However this kind of problem is leading me to think that they can't please many people with one GS5 alone: I used to assume people wouldn't mind a case or something for Phoenix but seems people don't want that. So this is why I'm leaning to the dual AU or 'put Phoenix in GK' type options. The more separate 'sides' can be placated in different games/realities without compromising each other's enjoyment.

Possibly. I'd still want more Phoenix, though, and I probably wouldn't pick it up- I hate when series replaces a main character or entire main cast for no reason, that's the reason I was unable to enjoy the third season of Digimon, and why initially I had problems getting used to Star Trek: TNG. And I still don't think I'd be okay with them not continuing Phoenix in favor of Apollo. Apollo as a sidegame to a GS4 proper, with Phoenix and co, yes. Apollo with no connection at all would be seperate enough for most people to think it was a PW ripoff at first.

So... does this mean that if GS5 became the best game of the series (as agreed on by critics and fans alike ), you still wouldn't buy it if it didn't have phoenix as the main character?

does not compute

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All plot devices are used "for no reason". And furthermore, AJ is at least halfway justified by still having connections to a handful of old characters, plus the fact it's rather hard to pull off a continuation to a trilogy that's pretty much dead since the main character achieved all that was there to be achieved.

But the trilogy wasn't 'dead' it was merely 'complete'. It was a nice plot which could still be enjoyed and even sold. It's only GS4 which decided to make it 'dead'. (Hey, that's what Phoenix gets instead of Mia's literal death.) As I said things could have and should have been handled differently... And at least some of you played AJ first, right? You are not the target market the writers ripped off.
but this is getting nowhere. It's irrelevant if game 4 was 'justified' because GS4, as it IS was made. So we should be focusing on future games in the franchise and how the 'issues' raised by game for for Phoenix and Apollo should be handled.

So I raised a lot of 'scenarios' in that post. Which ones do people here think are acceptable or best and why? I don't support a lot of them (like 'Phoenix dies').

Last edited by icer on Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I should not hit the 'quote' button instead of the edit button.

Well, I personally support a "D. None of the Above" answer to that question (I support either a full retcon, or the double-Nick twins' time travel tale that I came up with, which would render AJ as not the bad ending of the Phoenix arc, but as the bad ending of GS5 itself, if Hobo!Nick fails- : Emmit, can I borrow the DeLorean?) if I had to pick, I'd say declaring it an AU, and making AJ a separate spin-off series that can continue while GS5 goes back to the main Phoenix era.

Last edited by RobbieValiant on Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

which option is the "let capcom handle it which ever way they feel is best, because chances are, they know what their doing," cause I pick that one.

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Hey, hey, this may be just a crazy idea and all, but how about we choose "Let Capcom continue with their current plot; they should know what they're doing"? I'm sure they'll restore Phoenix to his original glory somehow or another; they already practically did it in AJ. If I'm right, they'll make Apollo a trilogy and everything will work out fine. And with any luck, Phoenix will be seperated from Polly by the end of game three, like Mia was to Phoenix. Polly will become a full-fledged lawyer, and everything will come full circle and have a nice bow tied around it, like the end of GS3.

And Robbie, look. So what if they replaced Phoenix and took away his lawyer powers? He's still in the game, albeit with a mentor role. If you give the game a chance without going "OH NOES, PHOENIX ISN'T THE MAIN CHARACTER; IT MUST BE BAD", I think you might like it. Pretend, if you must, that the Phoenix trilogy didn't exist when you play.


And icer, I quite enjoyed what Capcom did to Phoenix. To me, it was an interesting plot point, and I played the original trilogy in order before AJ. It look forward to what they have in store for GS5, and believe they will keep AJ as part of the main series, like they should.

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Capcom? Or the writers? There is a distinction here. I don't think they'll 'restore Phoenix to his former glory' because why on earth would we even need Apollo in the game then? How do you propose Phoenix to be 'separated', die?

You may take a reasonable, mid-range approach to Phoenix and Apollo but the fact is there are a lot of Apollo fans (many who didn't play the trilogy first) who refuse to let Phoenix gain status or lawyerdom since Apollo is 'supposed' to be his 'replacement'. To stop Phoenix taking over the game, they have to keep inflicting negatives on him so he can 'stay dead', especially if he's supposed to be the 'mentor role'. Unless they quit the slightest attempt for Phoenix to be the 'mentor role' in this arc, I don't see them giving him much redemption as it would threaten Apollo's status as THE LAWYER in the arc. And they're stuck in the concept that the roles have to be similar to the last one, so Phoenix has to be symbolically 'dead'.

Also, I'm thinking they haven't made more of the plot, because where is GS5? And a lot of people were not happy with aspects of game 4, so why should we expect them to know best to please in game 5? The kind of split on the target market is unprecedented (people who only played GS4/first, people who liked GS4, people who had 'issues' with GS4 etc.) so who are they going to 'try' and please and how?

(Ugh.. tired.. I wonder when we'll ever hear about GS5...)

I mean the writers. But how will restoring Phoenix to his glory hurt Apollo? It could be some on going plot point until the last case of his trilogy where he's fully restored. That would be the most reasonable approach. Apollo gets to do his job, while Phoenix continues to redeem himself, both on and off screen, with Apollo helping once in a while, possibly. It won't be hard for them to impliment it. It could even reintroduce some of the old cast into the plot, as they help Phoenix and meet Apollo.

I envision it like the Kurain subplot. There were certain cases that had to do with the subplot entirely, and there were cases completely unreleated, even though you still saw Mia/Maya/Pearl in the game. You could have Phoenix in the game while doing some cases unrelated to him, with some related to him and the Gramaryes.

The goal that would be best for the writers, to balance the plots introduced in the fourth game as much as possible. They did it with the original trilogy subplots (Kurain/Fey family, DL-6 in the first game, Dahlia in the third game) They could have the Gramarye family trying to get back together, Phoenix getting his badge back (or at least good social standing), and some other plot
in the second game, and being finished in the last Apollo game. It should work pretty well, because it did in GS1-3. Phoenix could be the "dead" mentor until the last case, and it wouldn't take away from Apollo much.

As for a split fanbase, give them time to make GS5 and release GK and then we'll see where the fanbase is. At the moment, this could be nothing more than growing pains with the new progationist and all.

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ASSUMPTION. Just felt like saying that.

But seriously, for me it's Status: YES, Lawyerdom: Not Neccisarily. To me at least, a character that's hung on their profession isn't much higher than Mr. Bun the Baker. Phoenix is cool because of his character, not what he does. As I said before in a previous topic, most forms of media have characters falling from grace, look what happened to Gowron on Star Trek, but it seems that some of the fanbase clings to highly onto the happy ending that they'll fight to the death for it.

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You know, playing Apollo Justice didn't diminish in any way the absolute sense of fulfillment when I finally beat case 3-5.

Personally, I see people who only want "Phoenix to do well, to hell with everyone else" as someone who doesn't really seem to have a good grasp on reality. Asking for retcons, write-offs, etc. just sound like you want too many concessions made your way, at the expense of the series as a whole. I don't think Phoenix has this supreme "marketability" over Apollo; I mean, even as of right now, I still prefer him over Apollo. But still, I am perfectly happy with how the three games in his arc turned out, and would like to see more from this Justice guy, to see him do something pretty darn special.

I've played AA since the very first one, and overall, i am pretty happy with how everything has turned out. Hurray, Karma is dead, Gant is beat, Engarde's been outmatched, and Dahlia got eternal punishment. I was completely happy with how the cast grew and matured, grew more likable (or in Larry's case, less), and added to the good feel of the game.

When Apollo came along, I didn't go and say "Where the hell is the old cast?! How could they do this?!" I more or less said "Ok, it's a new guy, and 3-5 pretty much ended the series. I'm cool with that."
When I saw those cameos of Gumshoe, Hotti, and Meekins, I thought "Heh, those guys again. Just as crazy as I remember them. Good to see they're still around." And with Phoenix, I'm thinking "Interesting take on his character. He's a bit different, but I assume he's still the same at heart, and wherever the story takes this, it'll be all right."

Now, some people won't see it that way. They'll argue how those cameos ruined the characters, and how Phoenix did a complete 180, and really, that's fine.

But it is at that point, where you need to put away your whole gigantic wall-o-text blocs of logic (real-world logic), and start thinking with what I call video-game logic.

Look at the thing not through emotional eyes, but through the eyes of a game series, meant to be made and sold, and to get your money. Its hook is likable characters and exciting cases. Right now, successively speaking, three Phoenix Wright games have given way to a fourth game, Apollo Justice, with Phoenix thrown in to ease the transition.
At this stage of development, it would be ludicrous to completely disown the new protagonist, as it will do nothing but please of few die-hards and piss off a bunch of moderate fans, who will feel like they wasted their money on AA4. That is not feasible in a business sense, so therefore, Apollo needs to stay, as the star of the next game.
New fans are happy, as the hero of the last game remains.
Moderate fans are happy, because they are getting their money's worth.

Die-hards who abandoned the series after Phoenix left need to break out of their sorrowful reverie, and just play the damn game and have fun with it.

A lot of this, in my opinion, amounts to excessive over-thinking. Like arguing Zelda's time line instead of having fun with the games.

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Thing is, I don't want Apollo himself disowned, merely displaced. Even if the events of GS4 are obliterated or made AU, that means in the main universe, there's still a counterpart to Apollo. Using this, I'd say make GS4 an alternate timeline, and have GS5 be a proper Phoenix Wright game, with Apollo guesting- perhaps in this timeline, he's a rookie apprenticing at Wright and Co., or some such job. Which would give you a good reason to use him in court- on-the-job experience. You please Apollo fans by keeping him, you please Phoenix fans by keeping him, and you retain spinoff potential for Apollo. To paraphrase the Doctor- "Everybody wins, Rose. Just this once! EVERYBODY WINS!"

Last edited by RobbieValiant on Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

NOBODY ever wins with AU. With very few exceptions. I'd think that the majority of the Apollo fans AND the majority of the Phoenix fans don't want them just to appear. They want them to be played well. They won't get orgasms just for seeing their faces on a preview.

GS4 left mysteries unresolved, specially surrounding Apollo. As much as some want to refuse it, there is people who CARE about having these mysteries resolved. And just shoving everything into AU doesn't solve half a mystery without making everything off sense.

A GS5 that retains the continuity of GS4 still has space for Phoenix to restore his status, if that's what you want so. I'm thinking that GS5 could focus on making Phoenix become what he was by 3-5, WHILE continuing to develop and reveal Apollo. And then GS6 closes the trilogy in an awesome ending in which Apollo's entire story is known, and his achievments come to be equal to if not higher than Phoenix's.

With that idea, both Phoenix and Apollo get crowned for awesome. And there is no need to kill GS4 to do it. It was mostly a platform to launch a new, awesome arc after all.

Otherwise, though, I'll go with the idea that we should just let Capcom handle it. They know what they are doing. I trust that they can priorize a good plot over fanservice. After all, the WORST thing that can happen to a series like GS is not causing emotion in the players, and if GS5 is just a truckload of fanservice that doesn't continue GS4, I won't particularly care for it.

My complaints about GS4 go way beyond just what they did to Phoenix, but it was certainly what broke the camel's back for me, and probably for a lot of other people.



Somehow judging from the way GS4 was written, I have my doubts on that.



Which is pretty much what they did in GS4, as far as the new main character and prosecutor is concerned. The only characters I ever really felt for are Phoenix, Vera, Valant, and to a lesser extent, Trucy and Wocky. Apollo and Klavier meanwhile, I have no real reason to feel emotionally attached or connected to them at all.



I beg to differ. It would solve a multiude of complaints people have with the series. It would leave Phoenix having potential to show different sides to his past in ways related to the plot, it would clear the older fan's minds of the blaitent ass-raping of the original trilogy, and it would stop arguments and debates like this. AUing the story wouldn't affect the Apollo fans in anyway whatsoever.

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I would generally suggest making a fan-game where Apollo never happened and Phoenix fights the long-lost brother of Manfred Von Karma (prosecutor at the age of FIVE) and becomes the best lawyer ever.


I must be kooky, but I never really saw any actual damage to the original trilogy after Apollo.

In fact, I played them recently. They're still pretty darn fun.

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You know what's funny? I used to be like robbie... I heard about apollo justice, got upset that phoenix wasn't going to be the main character, looked up the wiki page, got butt hurt about phoenix being a hobo and stuff, and didn't plan on buying apollo justice... I even remember hoping that apollo justice would get retconned or something similar!

Then I finally bought apollo justice, because I figured that I might as well... Now I wish I could go back in time and smack myself for being so butt hurt about the game...

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Wobuffet.... Critics and many fans would never trust the series again. I'd rather there be heated discussions like this than for it to be 'fixed' by saying the game never happened.

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I don't get what all of you guys mean by the original trilogy got killed after what they did to Phoenix. He still got his prefect ending. He still had a great trilogy. Apollo didn't unravel that, it merely showed that bad things happen to good people. And face it, Phoenix was damn lucky for a three year streak of usually getting what he needed, his luck had to run out at some point.

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Wow, I think my sarcasm detector just exploded.



Oi. *slaps forehead* There's a big difference between "AU" and "never happened". "AU" means the story takes place within a different continuity then the original story, while "Never Happened" means well... never happened! An AU wouldn't affect the Apollo series at all, the only thing it would do is make Phoenix's 3-5 ending his true ending, and leave his original character alone, rather then needlessly dragging him through the muck. If anything, this could pave the way to do new things with Phoenix's character that they couldn't do without breaking canon of the original games.



I wouldn't have had so much of a problem with it if his luck haden't run out barely TWO MONTHS AFTER 3-5, where Mia finally acknowledges him as an attorney equal to her, Godot's mention that Mia lives on inside of him, and that Maya was going to continue being his legal assisstant. That's what kills the ending of the original trilogy for me.

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Phoenix is fine in the originally trilogy. He hasn't been so lucky in AJ. I don't understand how his status in the original trilogy affects how he is later on. He was brought down to earth in AJ after having practically unhuman amounts of luck before. It's only natural.

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Wait, wait, my plot sense is tingling...
Phoenix is a mutant/metahuman, with powers along the lines of the Scarlet Witch! Various cases of the GS series he took where the defendant was guilty, but he warped reality to incriminate someone else! The AJAA timeline is the manifestation of a psychological breakdown he went through at some point, and GS5 will pick up with him facing whatever brought on such trauma, and winning, and then everything returning to post-GS3 normal... Except his office now has a new intern, one Apollo Justice- the only other with memory of the other timeline.

*facepalm*

Ok, Ok! We realize that you hate Apollo just because he's not Phoenix (I still don't get why), now go play some AJ, and get over your selfish fanboyism alright?

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Dude, that was a joke plot playing off your "inhuman amounts of luck" line and silver age Avengers/X-Men.... Scarlet Witch's powers are essentially reality warping.

I'm sorry, but it's a bit annoying that everytime you come here, all you say is that you want AJ retconned or put into AU without really contributing much.

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poor polly... he gets so much hate for not being feenie

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