Why on earth are we arguing over a conceptual example I gave to illustrate a point? (Which I think is now being illustrated very well, BTW.)

I should have resisted the urge to reply..


Why is it obvious? Maya's story wasn't 'done'. She isn't dead, and what was planned for her future DIDN'T OCCUR. In my example, Apollo is no longer the protagonist next game. Just like Phoenix was no longer the protagonist from game 3->4. Totally precedented.

So, Apollo could have snapped and quit lawyering 2 months later. He could have been hit by a car. He could have decided to work at McDonalds. He could have been abducted by aliens. And nobody knows what GS5 will be, so you can't say anything about impact.

But it wouldn't be smart to get rid of Maya. She and Phoenix were closest friends and she could have and would have helped him, not 'disappeared'. This isn't about being plausible. That's the whole point of my example. It would be stupid to just eliminate Apollo as they were becoming a family. Which is what they did to Phoenix over Maya and Pearl, really. (Forget shipping. It's canon that he's virtually an honorary member of the Maya-Pearl-Mia Fey clan by the end of 3-5.)

No there isn't. But hey, maybe Trucy can disappear without trace from GS5. No reference, no mentions of a sister or daughter, maybe a token magic DVD sent to someone else. Would you think it was acceptable?

Um no. She got in the car...
but then we find out in hindsight that THE CAR CEASED TO EXIST!

What the hell. GS5 is about Apollo, a continuation of the GS4 reality. AU doesn't even get an actual game. We just get told that in another officially canon reality, Phoenix was a lawyer and didn't take the Zak case, and 3-5 was probably the end, except maybe a token appearance in GK or something.

*sigh* I didn't mean to start an argument over this. I need sleep.


REQUOTED FOR TRUTH. And the arrogance that the writers thought it wouldn't matter and (supposedly) we wouldn't care.

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Sleep child, sleep.

You've done enough.

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Anyway,



You said yourself that Phoenix's story was done in GS3, so why couldn't Maya's be done? And further more, why can't Phoenix get replaced as a lawyer and still exist in the game if his time as the star is over?



It's still a disconnection that won't be welcome among many fans. With these alternate realities, people will question "which one is the preferred path?" Which one is the preferred story? Do the writers really want you to believe that he never took the case, or is that the AU from the main series? If it's the former, people get upset. Plain and simple.

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Phoenix's story was done. Then the writers RE-OPENED Phoenix arc for both Phoenix AND the chars whose 'ending' got CONTRADICTED by game 4. Maya's 'end' was shown explicitly to not occur. Therefore, her end was removed and is no longer an end. (Why is this relevant to this argument anyway? In my 'example', the end of game 4 is deemed to be an 'end' for Apollo, of sorts. It's not a cliffhanger, there's no intense 'need' to tune in next week for the conclusion of the case. Sort of like the end of GS1)

Once Phoenix stopped being main char, he could have either not returned to the next game, or returned as not the main char. In my example, Apollo stopped being main char and wasn't returned to the next game. If you think that's unreasonable, then it's merely proving my point about 'deciding not to return a char when their return or existence would be expected in the plot and character situations of the next game.'


Both realities happened. There's no 'reality with more weight and we have to choose one or the other'. Since you love GS4 so much, you should be happy that this would indeed be the spotlighted reality occurring onscreen in GS4 and GS5. There's no expectation that 'Phoenix stayed as a lawyer' scenario AU ever gets another game, like GS5. People can just enjoy both alternate scenarios at the same time, without them having to compromise each other. Twice as much money, twice as much fans, twice as much happiness, no more fighting, ultimate creative freedom for Apollo arc... why would anyone be upset?

Or are you spiting the fact that somebody might be allowed to have, in their own heads, the democratic right of preferring one over the other?

Without this, the writers are going to have a terrible mess compromising everything over the uneasy Phoenix-Apollo power balance, trying to develop Apollo, trying to keep the series marketable, trying not to alienate Phoenix arc fans so they quit the franchise alltogether. All these factors to balance, and all to the detriment of each other. It's unlikely they can or will make a solution that well pleases anybody at all in one GS5 the same as GS4.

Apart from AU, the best solution I see in GS5 is just making Phoenix not appear at all, with the positive explanation of either 'Phoenix left to be a lawyer again, off-screen' or 'Phoenix left to live with a friend.' Fans can compensate for the 7 years and Phoenix's future in their own heads, saving writers the 'need' to patch up Phoenix on-screen, which would be a 'compromise' with Apollo's development.

icer, did you just say you want to take a more democratic approach to reality? As in, choosing what is real or not?

I think you might need to sit back and have a nice cup of tea, or something, because now you're just getting a bit TOO far out there.

Though I agree somewhat with the whole "Phoenix leaves" thing... I hope you weren't serious with the whole "Both happened, let me choose what is real" shtick. Because that is just plain silly.

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Oh, but neither are real. This is a game series, not reality. Since it's just, you know, imaginary, unlike real life, there's no reason why alternate possible scenarios can't be explored in plot writing. When x occurred, this happened. In the scenario x didn't happen, this occurred. They're possible scenarios. Just like every story, (and every fanfic, really - 'what if x occurred to the characters? This might happen'.) (And no, I didn't say what was in your quote. Not at all)

Stories are always imaginary, and just a exploration of one of many potential scenarios. Just like imaginary realities/'universes' are built up by writers around characters. It's not a reflection of anything realistic (like real life) at all. All that's required, is to make it clear that game 4 was indeed, a separate story to game 1-3, not a bad ending tacked onto game 1-3's story removing much of it. It's another story which might have occurred after the completed story if that scenario happened.


We're still getting nowhere here... and I'm pretty sure I explained absolutely nothing. Ugh. It's a way too abstract concept to put into words... BUT IT MAKES MORE SENSE THAN THE MASON SYSTEM. AUs are a way to allow possibly conflicting stories to exist simultaneously without destructing each other. Stories != actual reality. Just remember that.

Actually, I'm going to re-write that. I think we're getting confused with terms like 'reality' which are nothing to do with our own real life reality. It means the world the writers envisage in their heads with/for the characters, and the separate stories. The game 1-3 world and game 4 world really are separate 'realities' for purpose of writing and concept, but not for purpose of timeline and marketing, and the game 4 reality and universe which supercedes destructs the ending and most of 2 games worth of the previous separate and complete story, so it CAN'T exist as a separate story any more beyond around 1-5 without being seriously contradicted.

(And please let's leave it at that since arguing about it would reach an insane level of abstraction I'm not sure I could even cope with. It was bad enough with the above. There's not supposed to be literal reasoning behind AUs, any more than there's reasoning behind the fact that 2 totally separate TV show series exist in their own little in-show 'realities' - but they do for purposes of story and thought, don't they!)

Great, so moving on...
Any other ideas?

Last edited by icer on Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

oh god itt: WALLS OF TEXT

I don't know how to explain my point of view fully enough. I just think the writers should be left to do what they want to do, I have my full faith in them.

But on the old cast thing, I'd like Gumshoe and Maggey. And I want them married, lol. X3

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^Gumshoe's turning up in GK though, so I don't think his return to GS5 is as necessary. (I wonder if Maggey will turn up there, and if it's in relation to him?)

Fine, re. my previous post:

I feel like I'm on crack for even suggesting an 'AU' - except that the new producer (1-5, GS4) and writers have ALREADY WRITTEN AN AU. Denied the creative freedom of a genuinely separate arc, but not wanting the constraint of being forced to produce an exact follow-up to game 3's story with yet more limitations on their original Apollo arc vision, they wrote their OWN alternate scenario in their heads of a follow-up to the Phoenix and themes of 1-5. Game 2 and 3 are not part of their creative vision, only 1-5 was (and the 'Phoenix' they immersed themselves in), so it's disregarded except as a filled space on the timeline: 'Phoenix was a lawyer'. (And the magatama was simply a gameplay mechanic to stop it looking like a technological downgrade of GS2, not tied back to the GS2 plot.)

Look at Phoenix as a continuation of his 1-5 character, disregarding the details of events and character development which occurred in games 2 and 3, and his character and situation are not OOC at all. He might act that dumb in the flashback, (since the Mia scene didn't exactly happen in the head-canon of the writers). At the end of 1-4 and 1-5 Maya and Edgeworth left, so it's NOT strange if they 'left forever' in terms of 1-5 Phoenix. Everything makes perfect sense. It has been written as the new writers' and producer's AU version of Phoenix's story, and would have indeed been okay as a separate story

..Unfortunately, since it's not marketed as an alternate or separate scenario, we're told this destructive scenario has replaced the original story of game 2 and 3. All that's required to both restore the original games as a separate and appreciatable completed story AND give the writers ultimate creative freedom to writer their DESIRED new story is merely to officially say they are separate stories, two alternate scenarios, like every story is an alternate scenario. Then they no longer have to conflict with each other or compromise each other. And Apollo CAN be developed to their uncompromised creative vision like they originally desired.


...that's 'left to do what they want to do without constraints still imposed by Phoenix arc' isn't it?

That's right...

I doubt that AP is an alternate reality to the PW games.

Turning the series into a veritable choose-your-own adventure would be pretty dumb, in my mind. The problem is, icer, is that all in all, despite the walls of text, it doesn't make sense in the slightest, and there is no way to show that the Apollo Justice game was already conceived as an AU, or whatever the hell you want to call it. The story has been surprisingly linear, both in the games themselves and the overall timeline. A happens, then B, and so forth. As far as it has been shown, the AA games have explored one reality, down one fixed timeline. This is hard to deny. It didn't replace anything, it just happened. To say not and to justify it is extreme over-thinking on your part, I believe. As you said, it's a game series. Not a damn Orson Scott Card novel.




As for old cast, I say Spark Brushel and Wesley Stickler will return. And maybe Guy Eldoon.

Maybe Sal or someone like that has a one-shot cameo, like Hotti.


I kinda like the idea of "Nick is offscreen, training to be a lawyer again" and then perhaps he'll even show up all clean and professional in case three or four, to give some much needed information, as well as catch us up to speed on what he's been doing in his absence, with perhaps some references to his old pals (like a box of assorted tea, sent from a very "cultured" friend of his).

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icer, where does it say that games 2 and 3 are not part of their artistic vision? WHERE? It doesn't. So WHAT if the writers "Don't mention" 2 and 3? It doesn't mean that they aren't canon in GS4. You say that GS4 is more like 1-5 than the rest of the series. Well, OF COURSE IT IS. It's the same writers. I'd be surprised if they WEREN'T the same. It's only been four cases, and you think they wrote off half of the entire GS series. That is completely illogical.

Start making some sense before you return.

EDIT: Oh, and having Phoenix just suddenly not appear is just stupid. Where's the closure? The departure? It wouldn't be anywhere. I'd much prefer it if Phoenix regained his status over the trilogy, while Apollo remains the main character in the games. It's really not that hard, despite what you may think.

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If this isn't a 'separate' reality or creative vision, why are you so desperate for people like Maya and Edgeworth to not turn up and take over the plots and spotlight. Because it's the same story and same 'reality'! So you shouldn't mind them 'retuning'. Or for that matter for Phoenix to not be a lawyer, all over the screen, if it's the same story and same creative vision. If it's an extension of the same story, you should see the need for people like Maya to turn up and take the spotlight, it's only consistent.

If it's the same creative vision as game 2 and 3, then where is the evidence that they ever occurred or impacted Phoenix's character, rather than simply being 'Phoenix is a lawyer' space on the timeline? The magatama doesn't count, because it's only a gameplay mechanism (to stop a downgrade) and not related back to GS2 plot or chars at all. A few random references to 'a case with coffee' don't count either, there could have been other cases and Godot himself is never mentioned. Where's the evidence 3-5 happened?

Incidentally, I've stopped caring.

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Agreed. Also, Gumshoe pay raise would be nice so he and Maggey don't have to live in a box.

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Where's the evidence that it hasn't happened? Because, you know, cases 1-1 through 1-4 weren't mentioned in AJ either. By your logic, 1-5 is the only case Phoenix was a lawyer in, which does NOT make the SLIGHTEST bit of sense.

As for having Maya and Edgeworth return, I never said I'd be against having them back in. I wouldn't really care if they returned or not, just as long as they contribute to the plot like every other character has in the series, and is not just for the "OMG ITS MAYA AND EDGEWORTH" factor. Hell, even the Belboy can return for all I care, they just have to make it fit.

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1-5, by necessity, was written with taking into account the events and character development of cases 1-1 to 1-4. And by necessity, NOT taking into account the events or character development of game 2 or 3 because they 'hadn't happened yet'. So 1-5 timepoint Phoenix gets his character development from game 1, but not from 2 or 3 where is character received further development and so did his relationships (and skill).

So while cases up to 1-4 aren't refed directly, they were taken into account when writing 1-5 Phoenix. And 1-5 timepoint Phoenix is the character who is put in game 4 (at the flashback I guess), after several years of 'unspecified lawyer activity' on the timeline. (Then 1-5 Phoenix is given a GS4 makeover).

As to evidence it hasn't happened, apart from 'game being devoid of evidence it does' which you still haven't been able to provide, I'll get to that. Sleep...

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Boo, hiss.

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This argument careens into the valley of the retarded.

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I was trying to come up with a random character. What'd you want me to say, KUDO? He had his chance.

Anyway, there ISN'T any evidence to prove that they didn't happen. But to prove they didn't, you'd need evidence that they didn't happen.

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There's evidence they happened in GS4, because there are a lot of times when he makes references to things that happened in GS1,2,3, and if they didn't happen- moot point.

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The fact that we see contradiction after contradiction to the events, relationships and character development which occurred in games 2 and 3, not only '7 years later' when things may have 'changed', but also purported less than 2 months after 3-5 supposedly occurred in the timeline.

Those are EASTER EGGS. Do they have any actual bearing on the plot? Are any of the events, relationships or characters from games 2 or 3 shown to exert actual impact or influence on anything in the game 4 world? Is there any evidence the CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT Phoenix received in games 2 and 3 exists? No, there is not! Even if you make the argument 'things changed in 7 years', observe the flashback sequences less than 2 months after 3-5 timeline. Absolutely none of the character development, plot or established future scenario set at 3-5 is shown to exist or effect on Phoenix's character or situation. In fact, it CONTRADICTS what we see in 3-5 or even game 2, very significantly. And forget 'Apollo's perspective', we are playing as Phoenix.

Let's compare to 1-5 which was written deliberately as a plausible follow-up to the game 1 story and reality by necessity:

-Maya's absence is already explained because the 1-4 and game 2 timelines have already accounted her explained absence as completing her training.
-To properly reference the relationship set in the 1-2 to 1-4 plot development, he is shown to be missing her AND her absence at the trial is referenced by him commenting that it's his first trial without a Fey supporting him, but he'll try his best.
-There are no significant inconsistencies with the scenarios for chars set by 1-4 as imminently occurring.
- Edgeworth is given a believable follow-on from 1-4 in terms of his relationship with Phoenix.

It succeeded where GS4 failed, as they made no attempt to make that game a follow-up to the game 2 and 3 story. NONE of the above measures, which could have made the flashback/game a plausible follow-up to game 3 happened. Since it would have been so simple to implement, and not required returning the chars at all, the writers were purely disinterested in this being a story really set after game 3's plot in terms of game reality. It's just filled space on the past timeline.

Let's look at the 'flashback' sequences again, shall we? In 3-5, Phoenix has just been proven to be a great lawyer, eclipsing Mia.

All of a sudden, in 4-4's 'flashback trial' Phoenix is substantially different to 3-5 or indeed any other time we see him. He's pretty much a pretentious, arrogant jerk, going on about how old and wise he is and how young Klavier is. It's difficult to see this extreme character reversal happening just 2 months after 3-5. The vast majority of fans agree that Phoenix was written severely out of character here. Severely. He bears no resemblance to 3-5 Phoenix, (but maybe he might be somebody's bad caricature of what 1-5 Phoenix might have been like after 2 further hypothetical years of winning cases.) Little to no attempt was made to align him with the character in 3-5. Just check past discussions on this.

Furthermore, in stark contrast to someone who has 'just eclipsed Mia', he makes a very stupid mistake and falls into a blatantly obvious trap, after so implausibly taking the case in the first place. (Phoenix never even took cases unless they were related to someone he knew or Maya encouraged him to, really. This one was most obviously a particularly dumb idea.)

But of course, there's also the glaring absence of Maya. The only time Maya wasn't present at Phoenix's cases as assistant was in 1-1 before they met, and when she was on trial or kidnapped, or the sole case (1-5) when she was at a previously-explained period of training at Kurain. In the 3-5 credits, she explicitly states that she is (not 'maybe', IS) going to continue being 'Assistant General Manager of Wright and Co.' As we can see, every precedent in the games AND the canon scenario set at 3-5 lead to us expecting her to be here. If the writers had desired her 'not to be here', it would have been so easy for the writers to make an excuse, or even compensate for her absence by at least mentioning her. One line could have been easily fit into the game.

But since there is no reference at all, it's as if she doesn't exist! Thus, we have a glaring contradiction to 3-5's scenario set for her, and the precedent of games 2 and 3. We can make up any scenario we like in our heads to compensate, but it doesn't compensate for the reality of the game because there is no evidence to even support her off-screen existence, that someone might be missing, let alone where she's missing to. In terms of game reality, Maya simply does not exist at this point. The writers consider it irrelevant - because they do not see it as a follow-on to 3-5's (or even game 2 and 3's) plot or characterisation.

Then of course, the disbarring itself and time shortly after. Phoenix is all alone. Characters like Maya and Edgeworth simply don't exist at this point. This severely contradicts the character development these two were given - but in games 2 and 3.

Game 2: AFTER his soul-searching absence, Edgeworth returns and demonstrates he's not only grown in terms of personality and dedication to true justice/the truth, but returns to HELP PHOENIX when he's at his career crisis crossroads, a loyal friend who also believes in him in his hour of crisis and moral dilemma.

Maya is established as not only the person closest to' Phoenix, but someone willing to sacrifice her life for the sake of him and his career ethics. Not someone who'd abandon him, but someone who gets him the decisive evidence even when kidnapped and tells him to enact true justice in lieu of saving her. Maya is dedicated to him to the last.

Game 3:When Phoenix is in trouble, Edgeworth again returns to help him - to even more extreme lengths, charactering a private jet in the middle of the night and even taking the risky option of pretending to be a defense attorney, for Phoenix's sake. He even 'pulls strings' to get a special trial with a judge and prosecutor OF HIS OWN CHOOSING. Edgeworth's got power round here, game 3 sets the precedent. Power he uses to HELP PHOENIX when Phoenix is in need.

Maya's just as dedicated to Phoenix as ever and pretty conclusively implied in 3-5 as a person he can believe in without being betrayed Terry-style. He's canonly implied to have become an honourary member of the Maya-Pearl-Mia Fey clan, and family look after each other. Maya says in the credits she'll not only continue as both law assistant and Kurain Master, but also keep looking after Phoenix. This is her canon post-3-5 scenario. Both 'continue as legal assistant' and 'look after Phoenix, who is family' get blatantly contradicted less than '2 months later' in game 4's 'flashbacks'.

Game 1, Phoenix helped out Edgeworth and Maya. In game 2 and 3, they develop into characters who engineer even closer relationships to him AND RETURN THE LOYALTY BY HELPING HIM and believing in him. But nobody helps Phoenix. He's alone. Even indirect mentions (which could have been so easily included by the writers) never occur. Even game 2 time point Edgeworth and Maya would have helped and supported Phoenix after the disbarring, used all the resources at their disposal (and Edgeworth canonly had a lot of them) to clear his name ASAP.

However, there's also the interesting fact of game 1 Maya and Edgeworth, who were not as developed characters yet. They, in fact, can be more easily reduced to a shallow stereotype. And this is what has happened. When 1-5 Phoenix was mutated into GS4 Phoenix, Maya and Edgeworth (game 1 version) were too important to remove from Phoenix's character entirely. Therefore, their 'roles' in Phoenix's life couldn't just be gaping holes. So they got... substitutions.

Edgeworth, game 1: My friend who was the ONLY ONE who stood up for me in class peer trial. We suspected he did bad stuff and forged evidence, but I think he might be a good guy really and not a murderer.
GS4. Meet Kristoph: Friend who was THE ONLY ONE who stood up for me in class peer Bar Assn trial. I suspect he did bad stuff and forged evidence, but maybe he's not really a murderer. (I'm older so I'm less trusting now though, but there's no evidence yet)

That kind of puts an ironic spin on game 1, doesn't it!

Now Maya is slightly less obvious as in the 1-5 they wrote, she's already got her 'role' temporarily filled by Ema. But yes. The writers see game 1 Maya as just a 'role' in Phoenix's life which can be filled already (except that 1-5 did handle it plausibly and temporarily.):

Game 1 Maya: Young girl involved in crime not her fault, older sibling who is lawyer. Parents dead/missing. I want to save her and 'look after' her.
1-5 Ema: Young girl involved in crime not her fault, older sibling who is prosecutor. Parents dead. I want to save her.
GS4 Trucy: Young girl involved in crime not her fault, older sibling is lawyer. Parents dead/missing. I want to save her and look after her (Since I'm older, I can 'look after' her more now.)

Like Kristoph to Edgeworth, Trucy is an ironic spin on Maya's game 1 role - Maya gives Phoenix the decisive evidence in 1-4 (bullet) to WIN the case, Trucy gives him the FORGED evidence to LOSE his career.

Now in game 2 alone, the roles of Maya and Edgeworth quickly develop beyond these shallow stereotypes into something more valuable and essential to Phoenix. But, somewhat understandably, the writers spent their time immersed in the concept of 1-5 Phoenix, not game 2 or 3 Phoenix. And at the end of 1-4/1-5, both Maya and Edgeworth leave. So in the head-canon of the GS4 writers, probably it doesn't matter that they indeed left forever. It was Takumi who insisted on the token DVD scene, not the producer or writers who didn't want it. And Maya only 'sends' them. Consistent with what we might have got after game 1 only.

Therefore, it's pretty obvious that these characters and the development they effected on Phoenix were ignored beyond a stereotype substitution of their game 1 roles. Game 2 and 3 did not impact this reality. And, for a character like Phoenix, whose life and actual character development revolved around these two friends, ignoring the character development he received with their aid (game 2 and 3) ignores practically all of the character development he received in games 2 and 3. And that is what has occurred here anyway. GS4 Phoenix is based on his 1-5 character, not his 3-5 character.

Theres' more inconsistencies, but this is long enough already. So where's the evidence that Phoenix's CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT progressed beyond 1-5 and that any of the character development (and thus events that effected it) from game 2 and 3 'happened'?

Last edited by icer on Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

^
If only Capcom read posts like this.

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Wow, that pretty much makes sense. So AJ is essentially an AU where games 2 and 3 never existed. That would clear up the major contradictions of none of Phoenix's friends trying to help him after the disbarrment.


I hope GK offers some insight into this. If Edgeworth mentions phoenix during GK in that he would still be a lawyer, what you said may as well be canon.

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icar, very well put. I was really disappointed in Phoenix in AJ - the all-knowing, personality-less guy who tells Apollo what to do. Come on, Capcom.

On a lighter note, I want to see (and credit goes to this doujinshi I read) Pearls' reaction when she hears Trucy call Phoenix "daddy."))

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Except, that if AP was an alternate universe, then I'm pretty sure it would of been mentioned at least once. There's nothing that implies that it's an alternate universe. The "contradictions" you mention is probably the fault of shitty writing than anything else.

The point was making AJ an AU would make that writing make a shred of sense.

I personally believe, if AJ was done right, we wouldn't be having this argument right now.

By AJ being done right, I mean having NO ties to the previous games. Apollo and Klavier would've gotten some development, and their wouldn't be people arguing over if Maya and co. should come back. (Even though, there would still be some Phoenix fans who wanted him back.)

Heck, they might have been able to use the same storyline without Phoenix, Ema, and Trucy.

Meh, my two cents.

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Then the games will be shit. Good idea.

This isn't to do with Icers argument. All fan pandering is dangerous for a series, look at Sonic the Hedgehog for the best example.

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Christ, icer, you make so many assumptions, it makes my head spin.

Now my head hurts too much to type...I can't believe everyone is supporting what you're saying without question...

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People are supporting it because it makes sense. Do you have an evidence that contradicts her argument, that ANYTHING from GS2/3 took place in the GS4 universe?

*court record screen comes up*

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Nothing directly, but the notion that games 2 and 3 didn't happen in 4 is illogical and crazy. And she does like to dismiss references to a case involving coffee (WHICH PHOENIX DISCOVERED ON GS3), or the Magatama. I want her to present evidence that it was the writers intention for this case to be written as just after 1-5 and two other years of lawyering, like she claims.

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I hope they don't do something like that. Talk about cop-outs. Poor Apollo. No one is even willing to give him a chance. -_- I don't mind a small amount of fan-service as long as it doesn't harm the storyline, but there are limits. When you start bending to every demand made by fans, it's basically the end of the series.

As for references to JFA and T&T, I do recall there being at least a couple. The ones that come to mind are that Phoenix mentions that he received the magatama during a certain case (JFA) and I think that one of Apollo's thoughts were about being poisoned by coffee during 4-4 (T&T). Stickler goes to Ivy University which is the same school as young Phoenix and Dahlia (T&T). There are images that looks very like Larry at Sunshine in both his normal orange jacket and his very distinctive pink painter costume (AA and T&T). Not to mention that they refer constantly to Phoenix's reputation which he gained in the last three games. He even has a thought during his last trial about there being a new "prodigy" each year (Edgeworth, Franziska, and Godot for three years). There may well have been more, but unfortunately it's been a while since I last played the game and I don't have all the lines down to memory. I think that's more then enough to indicate that the previous three games happened and that AJ was never intended to be AU.

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Last edited by Mia_Fey on Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

Mia, you're baaack :3 Yeeey!

More on topic, there's lots of evidence that the second and third games existed. Mia's pointed out some good ones, but here's a more psychological one from me. Nick in the trial that lost him his badge acts more like 3-5 Nick than 1-5 Nick. Without major events, you get no development.

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After thinking about it for a minute, I agree with you, Gerk. I do think that this really is post 3-5 Phoenix we've seen, despite bad writing.

Think about it. If this really was a follow up to 1-5, he still would have needed a lot of help in the trial (well, arguably, he could have used it). But when Mia told him that maybe he thought he could go it alone for once.

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The problem is not that AJ doesn't make sense or directly contradicts GS2-3, but it's that it's VERY unlikely.
And for such unlikely things to happen (absence of Maya, etc.) there should always be an explanation.

For example, what if in Star Wars episode one we didn't see Quigon (spelling?) dying, and he wouldn't even be referenced in SW episode 2?
It would cause a major confusion why isn't he there, even though it wouldn't directly contradict the events.

Edit:
Another, maybe better example:
Let's pretend that Aladdin 2 was never made, only Aladdin 3, where Iago is with the good guys. The viewers would be confused why isn't he with Jafar anymore (hell, why isn't he in that lamp, and what about that lamp?).
So everyone can imagine that Iago got free, joined the good guys and they killed Jafar, but one wouldn't think of it after having watched the first movie. Unlikely things like this should be explained, and this is what AJ lacks.

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Let me set this straight, I don`t hate apollo.

However, what I am really frustrated/mad about is the fact that NO ONE would help Phoenix in such a huge crisis. That he is essentially ALONE with Trucy for all those 7 years with NOBODY even THOUGHT to try to clear his name in all that time. That Pheonix would have to come up with a plan all on his own and wait SEVEN YEARS for apollo to show up in Gavin's office to put the plan into effect.

That NEEDS some kind of explanation, other than "everybody died", which almost looks like the truth. Making it a sequel to 1-5, in a universe where GS2/3 did not happen but instead he took random cases, makes the msot sense in that he would have never made those connections in the first place.

The magatama could be a "going-away present" from Maya. A coffe poisoning case could be anything, although it was definitely an inteded easter egg, in reality it could be a completely different case.

The Larry image also dosen`t contradict, as he could have become an artist in this universe too, just not having pheonix involved.


Sorry for getting all worked up, it just annyos me at just how inconcieveable the whole situation is, that he would just be abandoned by everyone. It also dosen`t help that I`m replaying the series (At 3-4 currently) for the third time right now. XD

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Mia_Fey, that's the point. Either they majorly downsize Phoenix and let Apollo have the limelight, or they tie it into the previous games properly. They did neither, and it's extremely frustrating.
Handren,

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But it's a matter of opinion. It doesn't prove anything either way, it's like telling an optimist and a pessimist from a glass of water. The glass is the small details, and the two sides are from how you interpret it.

I um, would like to apologise for my comment before. I think Icer and everyone here is making interesting points. I just fear that capcom will go pandering to the base and everything will go wrong. :(

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'3-5' is a TIMEPOINT [time not plot] after which 4-4 flashback is set. 1-5 Phoenix in the writers' mental concept would have increased in lawyer skill and experience during a charted timeperiod labelled '2 years as a lawyer winning cases, though detailed plot or charcterisation are irrelevant to OUR conceptual vision.' It stands to reason in any 'reality he would increase in skill and experience. 4-4 Flashback Phoenix is 1-5 conceptual Phoenix AFTER 2 further years of HYPOTHETICAL 'lawyer experience, winning cases', irrelevant beyond maybe a 1-line synopsis of a few random cases IF FORCED, the output of which is NOT 3-5 Phoenix, but '1-5 Phoenix if he got 2 more years experience of winning cases'. And he seems pretty damn arrogant, complacent like this WAS his empty breezy story - construct a hypothetical Phoenix who is 'more experienced and won all/almost all cases.'

Takumi:

Poor Takumi. Producer wanted to write a new 'story' with a new creative vision and 'reality'. Nobody wanted to make a continuation of GS3 reality. 'Character' was returned. His previous story was not. Only 1-5 and thus 1-5 Phoenix were part of this new generation conceptual story and new generation reality. It's kind of like, say Bugs Bunny. A successful series of cartoons might have been produced, and a line of movies featuring the character, but when a writing team is charged to write 'Bugs Bunny the Movie X', and are told to write a 'NEW story', they are going to only draw inspiration and impact from their recently completed 'Bugs Bunny The Movie Z' without trying to associate the previous movies of the character properly into their own story concept of the character's characterisation and reality.

In hindsight, a few trivial Easter Eggs were stuffed in the game to be able to superficially market it as 'a follow up to Phoenix's arc' to ensure sales. But in terms of writing and creative concept? It always was just a continuation of the new writers' and producer's own creative vision AKA AU of 1-5, never intended to be a continuation after 3-5's story at all.

In fact, the producer and writers were so insistent that it be a separate version of their own reality and story NOT be impacted by the events of game 2 and 3 which are someone else's creative vision and considered irrelevant in terms of contribution to their new arc story reality, that a strict policy rule was set at a WRITING POLICY LEVEL that events and characters of games 2 and 3 did NOT wield any impact with regards to the current arc reality. There's an obvious POLICY that previous game events and characters were NOT DIRECTLY REFERENCED and chars outside 1-5 are NOT REFERENCED BY NAME:

'My mentor gave it to me'
"Some 'kid'"
"A certain case."
etc.

This is a decision at a POLICY RULE LEVEL. Only 1-5 and its events are directly relevant. Events and characterisation which occurred in 2 and 3 are deemed irrelevant and furthermore FORBIDDEN TO EXERT IMPACT. Notice it's not the previous 'arc' as a whole was deemed irrelevant to the current plot, as their OWN new-gen work of 1-5 is continued and explicitly referenced to be impacting in detail on GS4 reality. The policy is 'we only allow our own creative concept of Phoenix and GyakuSai past reality to exert actual influence on the current game, NOT the games 2 and 3 which were not part of the new producer's new creative vision.'

It's clearly officially deemed by production as NOT a conceptual or plot-level follow-up to game 3 reality. Any references inserted belatedly as 'Easter Eggs' are completely superficial and have no bearing or impact on the game world or Phoenix's character development past 1-5. On a conceptual level, they may as well have not occurred, and they haven't.

Phoenix's present reality and characterisation would be identical and completely indistinguishable if they were removed and that is the policy constraint explicitly set. Games 2 and 3 have no plot or characterisation impact, they are merely a past timepoint. The removal of the Easter Eggs would not render the game or Phoenix's reality or characterisation any different if they were removed. In terms of reality impact, they were zero. It's a follow-up to 1-5's conceptual world only, set timewise at an arbitrary 'game 3 end timepoint', not an extension to the plot or conceptual world ('story') of game 3 itself. It was only ever marketed as a 'follow up' to game 3's actual story or plot in hindsight, not written conceptually as one.

NOTHING in the game contradicts the assertion that, CONCEPTUALLY, it is a follow-up to 1-5's reality only, in the writers and producer's heads, this is a continuation of the reality of 1-5 alone in terms of characterisation and story, NOT 3-5. And it fills the criteria. 'Return the CHARACTER Phoenix to a NEW STORY aka reality scenario.' No criteria ever required it be a follow-on to the actual conceptual world of 3-5's plot and characterisation, so it is not, and it being so was actively prevented at a production policy level.

It's the new generation producer (1-5+) and writers' Phoenix concept (1-5) which is the 'character' returned, NOT the old generation's game 3 Phoenix concept as they wanted this to be their own new story and conceptual reality. And this did fill the criteria of 'return Phoenix' on as close to their own terms as could possibly be allowed. Thus, it was a conceptual AU. Only marketability then deemed it be called a superficial 'follow-on.'

And if you're a fan of the producer and writers' new creative vision aka reality, you should WANT this to be officially declared an AU, so Capcom won't try to impose further restrictions to superficially try to align it with Phoenix Arc and compromise its creative potential. It was never written as anything but an AU extension of 1-5's reality and concepts, not 3-5's, and trying to pretend it is will just cause continued damage to both stories aka 'realities'. All problems stem from belatedly trying to pretend it is a follow-on from game 3 reality plotwise, (and stuffing in the bare minimum of Easter Eggs to try to claim it 'could' be) when conceptually it never was written as such.


'Done Right' = Declaring an AU in hindsight so the writers get this creative freedom belatedly for GS5 without further compromising or being forced to deal with the Phoenix arc which was a separate story aka reality.

Trucy: Guess what Apollo, we live in an ALTERNATE UNIVERSE! Because we know about the other one, right?

They attempted to fill the 'return Phoenix' criteria with the method that least restrained their own creative concept for the 'new' generation reality/story - by returning their own concept of Phoenix from 1-5.

They've made explicit parallel 'substitutions' to compensate for GAME 1 character 'roles' in terms of Phoenix - this can't simply be an error of bad writing. This is deliberate. (See my last post.) And the absence of Maya and Edgeworth from the 'new reality' merely supports the assertion they think this compensated for them by filing their GAME 1 1-5 timepoint roles. Maya and Edgeworth NEVER move beyond their 1-5 timepoint in this conceptual reality. It's implied their character development of game 2 and 3 simply didn't occur, nor the associated development this rendered on Phoenix.

AU makes Apollo Arc officially the separate reality story it always was intended to be and allows it to be fully developed as such without being further compromised by fake ties to Phoenix arc. It also stops the current situation of it ruining the completed story of games 1-3 by officially claiming it 'superseded them' and they (2 and 3) now officially exist only in a strange unreality of one-line trivial case summaries devoid of the actual plot or character development which was ret-coned. Takumi and the producers considered it a separate story aka reality. Only the marketing department forced vague masquerading as otherwise. A spring of parsley on a steak does not really make it a salad. I'm afraid this does seem the most logical decision in terms of the series as a whole with regards to positive development of Apollo, Phoenix and Edgeworth's games series.

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