Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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RobbieValiant wrote:
I'm sorry, but no. It's like Twilight- I could take the first book from morbid curiosity, but anymore would just be too much. 
is to 
as the Cullens are to actual vampires.
is to as the Cullens are to actual vampires.Except the vampires never went through any life-changing events, versus Phoenix's two.
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Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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RobbieValiant wrote:
The vampires also didn't have a mysteriously disappearing supporting cast who would have to have had serious changes to be absent as well.
Nor did Phoenix. They just didn't show up in Apollo Justice because Apollo has no real reason to care about them, and the only part from Phoenix's point of view was brief snatches from a seven-year span of time.
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The Hotti -> Hickfield name change was to demonstrate that he is such a pervert idiot that he got kicked out of one clinic, but he still continues his thing at other places. Maybe in GS5 we'll see another hospital he's in (and using the name, too).
Also it'd be good to know if the already planned GS5 while making GS4, because then we could say that they deliberately left out Maya, Franziska and Edgeworth, so that GS4 could be a stand alone story, easily understandable for a new player (without confusing it with introducing characters that aren't directly linket to the plot, but still suggesting that there's someone there), and in GS5 they'd all have some kind of role, and that's when Phoenix introduces them, like "haha, you got Edgey as your opponent in court? You know, he helped me a lot during my lawyer days and even know. Without his assistance, I could never have done my secret mission." For the sake of pacing, in Apollo's arc.
Hell, maybe even GK will give some answers. Like, something happening to Maya (like a coma) right after the flashback trial. That's more reason for Phoenix to have a "dark time" and needing Trucy to cheer him up.
There are still endless possibilities to connect GS3 to GS4. I'd love to be a writer for GS5 so much :P
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Szabu wrote:
Like, something happening to Maya (like a coma) right after the flashback trial. That's more reason for Phoenix to have a "dark time" and needing Trucy to cheer him up.
Oh, Lord, no. That's the cheesiest, most soap-opera cop-out you could have. That'd be almost worse than not having an explanation.
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RobbieValiant wrote:
Szabu wrote:
Like, something happening to Maya (like a coma) right after the flashback trial. That's more reason for Phoenix to have a "dark time" and needing Trucy to cheer him up.
Oh, Lord, no. That's the cheesiest, most soap-opera cop-out you could have. That'd be almost worse than not having an explanation.
Okay, it was only a first thought, it can be anything, Maya could have to travel to Siberia or Alaska for some Master-ish or training-ish business for a couple of months or anything.
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However, when including GS2 into the canon, you learn that he DID go to the hospital, and that is proof that he was in the series before.
He was put in for the JFA fanbase, why? To appeal to them, to show the game is still canon. So what if he changed his name? It's likely that he either moved to another clinic, or the clinic changed it's name. No matter what counter-argument you throw at it, the fact that it's still the same person means that GS2 happened.
Or...do you have evidence that shows he's NOT the same person?
He sure looks like he's the same person. Acts the same. Even dresses the same. Even has the same theme song!
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Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
Robbie and icer, you guys keep saying "maybe he was in the hospital during that two years or that later seven years" and such, but you have no proof, if you go with your "alternate sceneario" plot.
However, when including GS2 into the canon, you learn that he DID go to the hospital, and that is proof that he was in the series before.
He was put in for the JFA fanbase, why? To appeal to them, to show the game is still canon. So what if he changed his name? It's likely that he either moved to another clinic, or the clinic changed it's name. No matter what counter-argument you throw at it, the fact that it's still the same person means that GS2 happened.
Or...do you have evidence that shows he's NOT the same person? He sure looks like he's the same person. Acts the same. Even dresses the same. Even has the same theme song!
However, when including GS2 into the canon, you learn that he DID go to the hospital, and that is proof that he was in the series before.
He was put in for the JFA fanbase, why? To appeal to them, to show the game is still canon. So what if he changed his name? It's likely that he either moved to another clinic, or the clinic changed it's name. No matter what counter-argument you throw at it, the fact that it's still the same person means that GS2 happened.
Or...do you have evidence that shows he's NOT the same person?
He sure looks like he's the same person. Acts the same. Even dresses the same. Even has the same theme song!He IS the same PERSON, he's just in an alternate TIMELINE/UNIVERSE. Names may change, it's how these things work. Y'know, like how in "Red Son" Superman wore the sickle and star, and he was Russian, but he was their Superman? Or how in "True Brit", he was essentially the same, but was British? Same idea.
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
Evidence?
He could be the same, or he could be a different person. IMO, he's that timeline's version of Hotti. He isn`t even mentioned past his 2 seconds of screentime. You don`t even get to talk to him. There's no reason for him to go to a new clinic or change his name. It's simply an easter egg in the most basic sense. Notice how all of these easter eggs either address unimportant issues or skirt them without mentioning anything directly?
If they truly meant it to be a continuation, they could have easily added simple explanations for edgeworth and maya not being there, or that theyn tried to help but failed.
IMO, vallen at least play the first case of AJ. Didn`t capcom put up a flash version somewhere?
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Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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Handren wrote:
Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
Evidence?
He could be the same, or he could be a different person. IMO, he's that timeline's version of Hotti. He isn`t even mentioned past his 2 seconds of screentime. You don`t even get to talk to him. There's no reason for him to go to a new clinic or change his name. It's simply an easter egg in the most basic sense. Notice how all of these easter eggs either address unimportant issues or skirt them without mentioning anything directly?
If they truly meant it to be a continuation, they could have easily added simple explanations for edgeworth and maya not being there, or that theyn tried to help but failed.
IMO, vallen at least play the first case of AJ. Didn`t capcom put up a flash version somewhere?
It still explains what happened to Hotti after GS3. In the single timeline. The explanations for what happened to his name are so obvious, it shouldn't signify a alternate timeline. I've proved GS2's canon to GS4, this cannot be disputed.
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Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
It still explains what happened to Hotti after GS3. In the single timeline. The explanations for what happened to his name are so obvious, it shouldn't signify a alternate timeline. I've proved GS2's canon to GS4, this cannot be disputed.
Yes it can! Just because something is similar doesn't mean it's the same, especially something this small. Insignificant!
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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RobbieValiant wrote:
Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
It still explains what happened to Hotti after GS3. In the single timeline. The explanations for what happened to his name are so obvious, it shouldn't signify a alternate timeline. I've proved GS2's canon to GS4, this cannot be disputed.
Yes it can! Just because something is similar doesn't mean it's the same, especially something this small. Insignificant!
It ISN'T insignificant. If it weren't meant to be really canon, why bother bringing him back at all? They could just come up with someone else.
I don't buy the "more work" theory.
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Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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RobbieValiant wrote:
Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
It still explains what happened to Hotti after GS3. In the single timeline. The explanations for what happened to his name are so obvious, it shouldn't signify a alternate timeline. I've proved GS2's canon to GS4, this cannot be disputed.
Yes it can! Just because something is similar doesn't mean it's the same, especially something this small. Insignificant!
Okay, are you LISTENING to yourself? You would seriously rather believe that an alternate timeline could occur where Phoenix could:
- SOMEHOW happen upon a charged Magatama,
SOMEHOW meet a perverted fake hospital director,
SOMEHOW have somewhat negative feelings towards the Magician's Grand Prix, and
SOMEHOW have something negative happen during a nap on the bench in the defendant's lobby,
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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Gozu wrote:
omg ur just lik 
did ur parents di or somefin
did ur parents di or somefin
icer wrote:
Trucy: [Daddy was fired from legal clerk for loitering] Daddy has a fun new job as a street sweeper!
Phoenix: Guess what Apollo, today I swept up some EVIDENCE! ....
Phoenix: Guess what Apollo, today I swept up some EVIDENCE! ....
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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Acroma v2.0 wrote:
RobbieValiant wrote:
Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
It still explains what happened to Hotti after GS3. In the single timeline. The explanations for what happened to his name are so obvious, it shouldn't signify a alternate timeline. I've proved GS2's canon to GS4, this cannot be disputed.
Yes it can! Just because something is similar doesn't mean it's the same, especially something this small. Insignificant!
Okay, are you LISTENING to yourself? You would seriously rather believe that an alternate timeline could occur where Phoenix could:
- SOMEHOW happen upon a charged Magatama,
SOMEHOW meet a perverted fake hospital director,
SOMEHOW have somewhat negative feelings towards the Magician's Grand Prix, and
SOMEHOW have something negative happen during a nap on the bench in the defendant's lobby,
1. Maya could have given it to him either way. It dosen`t mean things happened exactly the same way.
2. YES, he could have. Because Hotti in GS4 is a JOKE. Nothign more. It's the equivalent of seeing a logo for the Umbrella Corporation in the background, and believeing that to mean Resident Evil takes place in the same world.
3&4 When did he say these?This is the first time ANYONE in this thread has menioned anything like those.
Someone else's story? LOL. Yeah Right. Name one thing in the game's overall story that is about Apollo and not Phoenix. The whole thing was about him getting justice for what happened to him, and punishing Gavin. Please. The game is all about phoenix and what happened to him. That is the central mystery in the story.
I still maintain that Phoenix being completely alone 2 months after 3-5 is a much greater stretch(considering the kind of crazy/morbid/OOC stuff you'd have to come up with to explain his COMPLETE lack of allies) than saying it took place a hypothetical 2 years after 1-5 in which GS2/GS3 did not take place.
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Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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That said, can we please get on topic.
This is the topic discussing what should be done with Phoenix and the old cast, not some crack and irrelevant theory that Apollo Justice is an AU. Whether it's an AU or not, Phoenix is in the game so what to do with him should still be discussed.
Discuss what Phoenix should do in the next game. Discuss what old characters should appear in the game. But please, please, give up this theory argument that has been going in circles for the vast majority of this topic.
*waits for post to be ignored and the argument to be continued.*
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Acroma v2.0 wrote:
RobbieValiant wrote:
Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
It still explains what happened to Hotti after GS3. In the single timeline. The explanations for what happened to his name are so obvious, it shouldn't signify a alternate timeline. I've proved GS2's canon to GS4, this cannot be disputed.
Yes it can! Just because something is similar doesn't mean it's the same, especially something this small. Insignificant!
Okay, are you LISTENING to yourself? You would seriously rather believe that an alternate timeline could occur where Phoenix could:
- SOMEHOW happen upon a charged Magatama,
SOMEHOW meet a perverted fake hospital director,
SOMEHOW have somewhat negative feelings towards the Magician's Grand Prix, and
SOMEHOW have something negative happen during a nap on the bench in the defendant's lobby,
Yes. Yes, I would rather believe that. You know why? It means Maya, Pearl, etc. don't abandon Phoenix for no good reason. By wanting that situation for Phoenix, the writers willingly derailed everyone else's character too. And that's not cool. Besides, it makes more sense, no matter how you cut it.
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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RobbieValiant wrote:
Acroma v2.0 wrote:
RobbieValiant wrote:
Yes it can! Just because something is similar doesn't mean it's the same, especially something this small. Insignificant!
Okay, are you LISTENING to yourself? You would seriously rather believe that an alternate timeline could occur where Phoenix could:
- SOMEHOW happen upon a charged Magatama,
SOMEHOW meet a perverted fake hospital director,
SOMEHOW have somewhat negative feelings towards the Magician's Grand Prix, and
SOMEHOW have something negative happen during a nap on the bench in the defendant's lobby,
Yes. Yes, I would rather believe that. You know why? It means Maya, Pearl, etc. don't abandon Phoenix for no good reason. By wanting that situation for Phoenix, the writers willingly derailed everyone else's character too. And that's not cool. Besides, it makes more sense, no matter how you cut it.
How do you know they abandoned him? Isn't it possible that they weren't ever onscreen? Yes, it is. For the four cases, you only played as Phoenix ONCE and that wasn't for an entire case. And I still don't see how an AU still makes sense when there is all of this evidence pointing out that AT LEAST GS2 happened. the taking a nap thing is a reference to 2-1, the Magician's Grand Prix was in 2-3, you met Hotti and got the Magatama in 2-2, and Hotti was in the game again in 2-4. EVERY case is referenced, and you still deny it. Why?
And sorry, Nose, I doubt that will happen.
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Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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RobbieValiant wrote:
Because it makes sense. It makes sense and neatly explains Phoenix's devolved character and the lack of Maya, Pearls, Edgey, and the rest. It just makes more sense to me. Of course, I am used to dealing in alternate universes, being a comic geek who actually understand Crisis on Infinite Earths and Infinite Crisis, and other similar stories.
It only makes sense to you because it ties everything up in a nice, neat, little bow. It's really like an excuse. Sadly for you, that's not the way everything is. Hell, even the GS universe didn't have things wrapped up so neatly, I doubt they'd start now. I don't read many comics, so maybe I'm not used to the ideas as you are, but I have strong doubt that that's the way Capcom is going, especially when they care enough to put in evidence that GS2 happened in the game.
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Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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Nose wrote:
Yes, 3 and 4 are in the game, and seem to have been ignored by Icer despite directly alluding to events from GS2, which contradicts her "this is an AU starting from 1-5" theory.
Easter Eggs(such as hotti/hickfield) are NOT contracidtions. Yoyu talk about ignoring, yet ignore my examples?
There is no reason to change the name of Hotti or the clinic. No reason WHATSOEVER.
NEITHER side of the argument has metioned those up until that post. There has to be a reason for that. I`ve palyed through the game TWICE and do not recall either of tham. Any quotes?
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Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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Valant:
Why, when "Zak & Valant" won
their first Magician's Grand
Prix...
Valant:
Yes! The very one held by the
Association of International
Magicians!
Valant:
I was adorned in this attire
then, too! And our trophy: a
bust. Ah, what a day that was!
Phoenix:
(*groan* This is one trip down
memory lane no one needs.)
=Examine Couch=
Phoenix:
I actually took a nap on that
couch once when I was still
practicing law.
Phoenix:
...Boy, was that a mistake.
Phoenix:
I never even sit on the
lobby sofas now.
Phoenix:
I never let my clients sit
on them, either.
Phoenix:
It's bad luck.
For the Hotti cameo to occur he would have to have changed his name, he's moved to the Hickfield clinic, and like with the Hotti clinic beforehand, is pretending to be the head doctor there.
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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I was going to say something else, but Nose took it.
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Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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Handren wrote:
Easter Eggs(such as hotti/hickfield) are NOT contracidtions.
I'm still confused as to why a reference has to be important to the plot to count...
RobbieValiant wrote:
Because it makes sense. It makes sense and neatly explains Phoenix's devolved character and the lack of Maya, Pearls, Edgey, and the rest. It just makes more sense to me.
Wait a second...
RobbieValiant wrote:
Now you're just being inane and we both know it. He was, generally, in character. What I'd expect from a younger Feenie, anyways, and it didn't bother me.
So Phoenix can have had character development to Phoenix the Lawyer, but he can't have any development from Phoenix the Lawyer?
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Acroma v2.0 wrote:
So Phoenix can have had character development to Phoenix the Lawyer, but he can't have any development from Phoenix the Lawyer?
Hobo!Nick isn't development, it's DERAILMENT. Particularly, derailment of the "not as you know them" variety. Read the definition, huge difference.
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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RobbieValiant wrote:
Acroma v2.0 wrote:
So Phoenix can have had character development to Phoenix the Lawyer, but he can't have any development from Phoenix the Lawyer?
Hobo!Nick isn't development, it's DERAILMENT. Particularly, derailment of the "not as you know them" variety. Read the definition, huge difference.
Of course, his reference on that site includes...
A Troper wrote:
Phoenix's change is pretty justified when you consider that not only has it been seven years, but they were some pretty soul-crushing years.
Meanwhile, to the other members of the Phoenix's-Change-Doesn't-Totally-Suck-And-In-Fact-Makes-Sense team, I humbly request our own version of the "Max's Symbols" quote:
SEVEN YEARS. DISBARMENT. DAUGHTER.
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BAD WRITING. EMBARRASSMENT. INFURIATING.
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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Quote:
directly alluding to events from GS2
NO direct allusion is EVER MADE! The only context is in past players heads, NOT GS4 itself.
Oh Phoenix took a nap on the couch and it was a 'mistake'. The event itself is not referenced! Doesn't say what happened. Totally indirect.
Oh Phoenix doesn't want a 'trip down memory lane'. The event itself is not mentioned. Totally indirect. No context in the actual GS4 world.
As for 'development', his character 'development' to GS4 was DESTRUCTIVE as all the character development of games 2 and 3 suddenly disappeared! This is not a natural progression of 7 years of whatever on top of his character at 3-5 timepoint.
However, it is 2 years of unreality and 7 years of whatever on top of his 1-5 character. You do notice that the 'old story' was finished as Takumi stated ('I don't want to add any more chapters to it') and all the characters which do return to GS4 are out of the new story of 1-5. Phoenix as well since they are forced to return the character to the new story.
Last edited by icer on Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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RobbieValiant wrote:
My point was that this is not a matter of organic growth, and he may as well have been someone else. Hell, I'd rather have NOT seen anyone from GS1-3 than what we got.
BAD WRITING. EMBARRASSMENT. INFURIATING.
BAD WRITING. EMBARRASSMENT. INFURIATING.
Who got? You haven't played the game. Therefore, you get nothing.
Besides, what is wrong with Phoenix changing character? People change over the years. At his heart, he was still cynnical and sarcastic, but his outside changed over seven years. I'm sure your own self has changed in that period of time, Robbie.
And icer, when did the term 'indirect' come to mean "no context"? They didn't want to have to explain the events to the new player, yet keep them for the vet players, thus the references, however indirect they might be.
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Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
RobbieValiant wrote:
My point was that this is not a matter of organic growth, and he may as well have been someone else. Hell, I'd rather have NOT seen anyone from GS1-3 than what we got.
BAD WRITING. EMBARRASSMENT. INFURIATING.
BAD WRITING. EMBARRASSMENT. INFURIATING.
Who got? You haven't played the game. Therefore, you get nothing.
Besides, what is wrong with Phoenix changing character? People change over the years. At his heart, he was still cynnical and sarcastic, but his outside changed over seven years. I'm sure your own self has changed in that period of time, Robbie.
'
And icer, when did the term 'indirect' come to mean "no context"? They didn't want to have to explain the events to the new player, yet keep them for the vet players, thus the references, however indirect they might be.
NO CONTEXT for the events is provided in GS4 world. Is there anything at all to hint at or indicate in GS4 'reality' exactly what kind of incident Phoenix might be thinking of? Sleeping on the couch was a 'mistake'. Does this indicate at all what kind of thing might have happened? The most we can glean from GS4's actual in-game evidence and GS4's context is that some negative consequence arose form once sleeping on that couch. Without the player themself providing the context in their heads to mentally link it to GS2, it could mean practically anything. He might have overslept and missed the start of a trial, it might have messed up his hair... it could mean anything. Thus this 'reference' is not formed by the actual plot, scenario or anything in this actual arc. And saying it was totally indirect to 'not confuse new players' is unsupportable, as more explicitly defining the event would have seemed like an interesting anecdote to new players and made the game more fun.
Quote:
BAD WRITING. EMBARRASSMENT. INFURIATING.
And this is an exact description I would apply to the 'flashback trial', unless it is indeed officially branded an alternate scenario after 1-5 as it was so obviously conceptualised. That is not Phoenix after 3-5. That is an insult to Phoenix and all players of the previous arc in the most implausible and OOC method possible to force him into a 'new' arc.
EASTER EGGS by definition, are a bonus which is NOT part of the actual scenario or plot of the current or other game/thing they are referencing and no actual repercussion or consequences are effected by the appearance in either scenario. It's merely a kind of in-joke shoutout in homage to past games (not necessarily even in the same series) which are not directly related to the current game's plot, scenario, or conceptual reality. Like, say some character 'Mr X' from a previous game 'X' by the same developers makes a cameo in the background of a game 'Y'. The player knows that in the official plot and scenarios, it's not added to the 'X game' plot that Mr X makes a trip to Y reality with consequential overlap and repercussions. If something happens to Mr X in his cameo in 'Game Y', we know it's not part of the story and does not affect the scenario back in 'Game X'.
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Last edited by icer on Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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I'm never going to find someone who understands my stance on this.
is a gross defilement of . is the core of GS. Therefore, AJAA is a gross defilement of GS. 
is a weak character, whose only purpose to those of us who understand Nick, is to make us want the old Nick back. And I hold that at least one of his old friends would most likely be close enough to at least show up when Nick's in trouble. At least Maya would be. Of course, my POV there may be tainted by my shipper tendencies- I don't have a single fandom where I don't ship, and 
is my GS ship.
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icer wrote:
Quote:
directly alluding to events from GS2
NO direct allusion is EVER MADE! The only context is in past players heads, NOT GS4 itself.
Oh Phoenix took a nap on the couch and it was a 'mistake'. The event itself is not referenced! Doesn't say what happened. Totally indirect.
Oh Phoenix doesn't want a 'trip down memory lane'. The event itself is not mentioned. Totally indirect. No context in the actual GS4 world.
As for 'development', his character 'development' to GS4 was DESTRUCTIVE as all the character development of games 2 and 3 suddenly disappeared! This is not a natural progression of 7 years of whatever on top of his character at 3-5 timepoint.
However, it is 2 years of unreality and 7 years of whatever on top of his 1-5 character. You do notice that the 'old story' was finished as Takumi stated ('I don't want to add any more chapters to it') and all the characters which do return to GS4 are out of the new story of 1-5. Phoenix as well since they are forced to return the character to the new story.
Still, why else would the writers put all these "easter eggs" in? Notice that they don't reference any other random case, only ones that happened in GS1 and 2.
And yes, Hotti did return, now he is just at another clinic. It's just a joke showing that he got kicked out from Hotti Clinic for being a perverted fake director, and he still continues this attitude somewhere else. Again, it wouldn't surprise me to see him with yet another (fake) name in GS5 or GK, and it'd be hilarious.
I don't even think that Phoenix was out of character in the flashback case. What exactly was so ooc about him? Besides, anything can happen in 2 months. I'm talking about personal experience, I've changed more in 2 months that Phoenix did from 3-5 to 4-4 flashback (and this didn't occur only once).
Of course, it's not very predictable, but what is predictable in the GS universe? After 3 games, we, the players should have enough skill to connect the dots and explain the things that look contradictory. Maybe it was deliberate.
Instead of explaining everything, AJ makes old players think what events could have happened that we didn't see in GS4. And that is a great thing, actually, this is what inspired me to write my first fanfiction.
Yes, they didn't connect GS4 to GS3 directly, but these 2 games don't contradict clearly.
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
Bronze Samurai
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icer wrote:
Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
RobbieValiant wrote:
My point was that this is not a matter of organic growth, and he may as well have been someone else. Hell, I'd rather have NOT seen anyone from GS1-3 than what we got.
BAD WRITING. EMBARRASSMENT. INFURIATING.
BAD WRITING. EMBARRASSMENT. INFURIATING.
Who got? You haven't played the game. Therefore, you get nothing.
Besides, what is wrong with Phoenix changing character? People change over the years. At his heart, he was still cynnical and sarcastic, but his outside changed over seven years. I'm sure your own self has changed in that period of time, Robbie.
'
And icer, when did the term 'indirect' come to mean "no context"? They didn't want to have to explain the events to the new player, yet keep them for the vet players, thus the references, however indirect they might be.
NO CONTEXT for the events is provided in GS4 world. Is there anything at all to hint at or indicate in GS4 'reality' exactly what kind of incident Phoenix might be thinking of? Sleeping on the couch was a 'mistake'. Does this indicate at all what kind of thing might have happened? The most we can glean from GS4's actual in-game evidence and GS4's context is that some negative consequence arose form once sleeping on that couch. Without the player themself providing the context in their heads to mentally link it to GS2, it could mean practically anything. He might have overslept and missed the start of a trial, it might have messed up his hair... it could mean anything. Thus this 'reference' is not formed by the actual plot, scenario or anything in this actual arc. And saying it was totally indirect to 'not confuse new players' is unsupportable, as more explicitly defining the event would have seemed like an interesting anecdote to new players and made the game more fun.
You should know as well as I do that they don't like direct references in the series, to prevent spoilers. Remember, in 3-5, they mentioned that Phoenix took on Mia's muder case, but they never said who it was they found guilty, meaning, by your logic, it could have been "anyone" at the time of GS3, thus erasing the existence of Redd White. According to you, they can indirectly reference all they want, but unless it's a direct reference, it doesn't count as evidence that it's a single timeline.
The same logic should then apply to my example. Because they don't mention Redd by name, obviously means that he didn't do it, right?
And Robbie...I consider that wrong in so many ways. Especially when you shouldn't be allowed to have a say in it.
Julia...<3Related to NaturallyLazy, fatalfeline, JadeRoach, and Game Over!
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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icer wrote:
EASTER EGGS by definition, are a bonus which is NOT part of the actual scenario or plot of the current or other game/thing they are referencing and no actual repercussion or consequences are effected by the appearance in either scenario. It's merely a kind of in-joke shoutout in homage to past games (not necessarily even in the same series) which are not directly related to the current game's plot, scenario, or conceptual reality. Like, say some character 'Mr X' from a previous game 'X' by the same developers makes a cameo in the background of a game 'Y'. The player knows that in the official plot and scenarios, it's not added to the 'X game' plot that Mr X makes a trip to Y reality with consequential overlap and repercussions. If something happens to Mr X in his cameo in 'Game Y', we know it's not part of the story and does not affect the scenario back in 'Game X'.
Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
And Robbie...I consider that wrong in so many ways. Especially when you shouldn't be allowed to have a say in it.
By that logic, anyone who played GS4 first shouldn't be allowed to give their opinion either. Because they've been hideously biased by playing GS4 first and of course will never see this discontinuity from GS3 as a problem.
So many posts.. I'll have to backtrack and look at them...
LOL parody sig trend. Phoenix/Maya Day is Sept 5!
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Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
You should know as well as I do that they don't like direct references in the series, to prevent spoilers.
Exactly. AJ's purpose was to introduce new players to the series, who might be more easily attracted by an all-new DS game with DS-exclusive features than by a GBA port.
The strategy was probably to make these new players interested in playing the original trilogy without spoiling it. If they directly said that "I don't want to sit on that sofa again, because once an idiot hit me there with a fire extinguisher" or "this is the Magatama I got from my assistant, who was also my lover, when she was charged with murder, and she was set up by her aunt who wanted to get her position", these would be spoilers for those who started playing the games with GS4.
But this way, they see that Phoenix is an interesting character with a lot of secrets (AJ doesn't even tell what the magatama is, so it's still an open question for those starting the game with AJ, but new players will see that it's a cool thing). It makes them curious, and they'll want to play the old games too.
Because let's be honest, a "lawyer game" isn't generally appealing for just a regular gamer, but it's better if the game is newer and DS-specific, like AJ. And they'll say that "omg, it was a great game, I want to play more, I'll get the 3 prequels".
That's how I see it.
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
What is my liiiife?!?
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Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
Titanium Ronin
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Szabu wrote:
icer wrote:
Quote:
directly alluding to events from GS2
NO direct allusion is EVER MADE! The only context is in past players heads, NOT GS4 itself.
Oh Phoenix took a nap on the couch and it was a 'mistake'. The event itself is not referenced! Doesn't say what happened. Totally indirect.
Oh Phoenix doesn't want a 'trip down memory lane'. The event itself is not mentioned. Totally indirect. No context in the actual GS4 world.
As for 'development', his character 'development' to GS4 was DESTRUCTIVE as all the character development of games 2 and 3 suddenly disappeared! This is not a natural progression of 7 years of whatever on top of his character at 3-5 timepoint.
However, it is 2 years of unreality and 7 years of whatever on top of his 1-5 character. You do notice that the 'old story' was finished as Takumi stated ('I don't want to add any more chapters to it') and all the characters which do return to GS4 are out of the new story of 1-5. Phoenix as well since they are forced to return the character to the new story.
Still, why else would the writers put all these "easter eggs" in? Notice that they don't reference any other random case, only ones that happened in GS1 and 2.
And yes, Hotti did return, now he is just at another clinic. It's just a joke showing that he got kicked out from Hotti Clinic for being a perverted fake director, and he still continues this attitude somewhere else. Again, it wouldn't surprise me to see him with yet another (fake) name in GS5 or GK, and it'd be hilarious.
I don't even think that Phoenix was out of character in the flashback case. What exactly was so ooc about him? Besides, anything can happen in 2 months. I'm talking about personal experience, I've changed more in 2 months that Phoenix did from 3-5 to 4-4 flashback (and this didn't occur only once).
Of course, it's not very predictable, but what is predictable in the GS universe? After 3 games, we, the players should have enough skill to connect the dots and explain the things that look contradictory. Maybe it was deliberate.
Instead of explaining everything, AJ makes old players think what events could have happened that we didn't see in GS4. And that is a great thing, actually, this is what inspired me to write my first fanfiction.
Yes, they didn't connect GS4 to GS3 directly, but these 2 games don't contradict clearly.
But why would Hotti change clinics? Why go through the hassle of making ait a new clinic for no reaosn whatsoever? Why couldn`t Phoenix just have been at Hotti clinic? It would not only have made mroe sense, but been a fdar more direct connection.
They went out of their way to give him a new clinic and a new name when they didn`t need to at all. It had no affect on the story.
For Me, I`m not arguing Phoenix's development. Being (apparently) alone for 7 years in the position he was in would embitter and jade anyone.
However, just HOW and WHY he got there is my main question. Throught the flashback case the go out of their way (again) to remove references to phoenix's relationships. (Platonic or otherwise).
I am not debating shipping, but it is INARGUABLE that Phoenix didn`t have extremely strong friendships with AT LEAST Maya and Edgeworth.
Effort was made in GS4 to leave out references to ANY of his friends, making him seem truly alone.
Not even a SINGLE mention of people trying to help him, but failing/giving up even due to Phoenix's attitude towards the situation was made. Heck, it could have been ONE LINE.
"After that, it was all over. My friends, even ones in high places, tried to help, but nothing could absolve me of my own mistake."
That took me about 2 seconds to think of. see how ONE LINE could remove the major contradiction of Phoenix being alone? Yet they Deliberately chose not to include anything like that. They didn`t even HAVE to mention people by name. THIS is why I believe in this theory.
Phoenix being completely alone and friendless 2 months after 3-5 IS a contradiction, and aside from everyone suddenly Dying, this is the only way it can be reconciled.
Love is Patient, Love is faith, Love is everlasting
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
*blink*
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Handren wrote:
However, just HOW and WHY he got there is my main question. Throught the flashback case the go out of their way (again) to remove references to phoenix's relationships. (Platonic or otherwise).
I am not debating shipping, but it is INARGUABLE that Phoenix didn`t have extremely strong friendships with AT LEAST Maya and Edgeworth.
Effort was made in GS4 to leave out references to ANY of his friends, making him seem truly alone.
I am not debating shipping, but it is INARGUABLE that Phoenix didn`t have extremely strong friendships with AT LEAST Maya and Edgeworth.
Effort was made in GS4 to leave out references to ANY of his friends, making him seem truly alone.
*Ahem* Excuse me while a quote a script...
Quote:
=Examine DVD Stack=
Apollo:
A swaying, spiraling stack
of DVD cases.
Apollo:
"The Steel Samurai",
"The Nickel Samurai"...
Apollo:
"The Pink Princess",
"The Zappy Samurai: Electric
Bugaboo"...
Apollo:
They're all children's action
hero shows...
Phoenix:
This "kid" I know keeps
sending them to me.
Apollo:
Huh.
Like a niece or nephew?
Phoenix:
...Something like that.
Apollo:
Quite the collection. This
kid's parents must be really
generous with their allowance.
Apollo:
(Funny, Mr. Wright doesn't
seem the type that kids
would like.)
Apollo:
A swaying, spiraling stack
of DVD cases.
Apollo:
"The Steel Samurai",
"The Nickel Samurai"...
Apollo:
"The Pink Princess",
"The Zappy Samurai: Electric
Bugaboo"...
Apollo:
They're all children's action
hero shows...
Phoenix:
This "kid" I know keeps
sending them to me.
Apollo:
Huh.
Like a niece or nephew?
Phoenix:
...Something like that.
Apollo:
Quite the collection. This
kid's parents must be really
generous with their allowance.
Apollo:
(Funny, Mr. Wright doesn't
seem the type that kids
would like.)
Hmmm... Who
could this "kid" be?
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
Bronze Samurai
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Posts: 1711
He isn't friendless, we just don't see them. It's that simple. The Steel Samurai and the "kid" reference leave enough for the player to wonder who/what they are.
Julia...<3Related to NaturallyLazy, fatalfeline, JadeRoach, and Game Over!
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