Robin Goodfellow has put together everything I've wanted to say in one post. I fully agree with it. You, icer, will just keep saying "LOLOL ITS AN AU OBVIOUSLY" until there is the sign in the middle of GK that says "APOLLO JUSTICE IS NOT AN AU" when it doesn't have to. No matter what new thing you'll resort to, you will run out of things to say, and you'll have to eventually accept every game as canon, unless DIRECTLY said by Capcom otherwise. Not through hints.

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To be absolutely fair to Icer, you could put the sign up to anyone in this fandom and it'd not work. (yes, including me). Especially the PxE shippers. *runs away from pitchfork mob*

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Geez everyone was starting to cool down and now everyone's getting all personal and belligerent again. sheesh..

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lolwat

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I'm just wondering what this "conceptual AU" idea is meant to achieve. On the one hand, it seems that you're using a lot of evidence and giving it your interpretation of it. In that case, the fact is that every single one of those things has an alternate explanation that is just as plausible, if not more. For example, the interpretations of the ads I find to be rather out there. The portrait scrolling thing is probably just a chronological listing of games, perhaps? The apparent contradictions are also not a big deal; the PW writers couldn't even get their own story straight half the time. None of it is solid proof and, as it stands, the myriad of ghost reports around the world have just about the same credibility just because there are so many of them.

On the other hand, it seems what you're trying to argue is actually a LOT weaker (in this context, a "weaker" statement just means that there are fewer useful consequences; e.g. "I stole a car" is weaker than "I stole your car yesterday") than your confrontations with other users about this keep making it out to be. In this case, I still don't understand what the big fuss is about. What would be brought about as a result of this "conceptual AU" thing?

I don't think having multiple versions of the series would be very wise, either. DC comics, for example, had tons of alternate universes due to characters getting different authors and getting put into what-if scenarios. However, one day, they all got mashed up into one universe. People were probably annoyed that there were so many different stories associated with Batman or Superman or whatever. I would have been (and I was for the short time I was into Batman).

I was just pointing out that even if the dev team went out and said that it really was an AU, I probably still wouldn't believe them. Same with what would happen if the writers came out and said that Phoenix and Miles definitely aren't gay for each other, the yaoi fans would just ignore them. Everyone ignores what they don't want to hear, just ask Gregory House.

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"The author never has the last word on their own work." - Roland Barthes, heavily paraphrased.

Come on this is basic literature criticism theory at best, and yes it can be applied to video games if, y'know, we got over the fact that people play these games for fun and some of them are worthy of study at a higher level.

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I've always hated the 'Author is Dead' theory because it means that anyone can get away with believing anything about a piece of work. I mean, I don't mind people having their own wacky theories about things, or discussing them, or even believing their idea is better. But some people actually go out and say that the author is wrong about their own freaking book, which makes no sense at all, otherwise they would'n't have written it. XD

I mean, to me at least everything canon is canon. It's the vague bits that define what we can make up ourselves. But as I said, that's just me :)

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Why? The writers/producer were eager to write a new story, separate from GS3, that they chose to conceptually disassociate from it as much as possible. I can't believe people even think they can carry the argument this is supposed to be a follow-up to GS3. The only debate is whether it's a separate timeline, or whether at some point on the same timeline a whole load of past history and characterisation was deemed functionally redundant for Phoenix.

The future of the series is whether they will NOW patch up GS4 by making an attempt to make it a continuation of GS3 specifically, by fixing some of that gross discontinuity in GS5 and/or GK, [ie dealing with Edgeworth and the disbarring and ret-coning in some help or reasons why he couldn't help Phoenix, returning characters like Maya and Edgeworth to GS5 or at least mentions of them consistent with if GS4 was after GS3's characterisation] or will maintain the 'separation' of the arc's historical relevance purge, or avoid dealing with it altogether, by having Phoenix barely/not appear in GS5.]

I find it odd that people demand that GS4 is a continuation of GS3 but are simultaneously rabidly opposed to any measures in future games that would make it a plausible continuity to GS3. You know the policy is that it isn't and GS3 is redundant. That GS2 and 3 have suddenly become functionally redundant at some point in history is a far more irrational concept than GS4 being a separate story with its own timeline. The future of the series is whether the 'GS3 is redundant' policy will be continued or ret-coned in the AJ arc or future games mentioning AJ [GK etc.]. The main point of contention in the fandom is over how acceptable the GS3 is redundant policy is, and to what point it should or should not be reversed.

And I'll reply to everyone else later.

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Generally, they'll stick to the text and nothing but the text. Even if the author didn't mean to write it like that, they'll stick to the text before going to the author for a clarification. That's the structuralists for you. The thing is, so long as an author is alive, they can re-edit the text, which would invalidate every single thing they've proven. Then again, that was one of the many reasons French studies used to not study living authors.

Nowadays, it's much more relaxed.

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You seem to be implying 'alternate conceptual timeline, why bother? Why?'

I can ask you the similar question. Why NOT? Why is the concept so threatening to people?


If every single one has an explanation which is just as plausible, if not more, how come I haven't seen adequate alternate explanations, not just to individual points but the concepts and seeming production standards as a whole. GS2 and 3 have been forcebly demoted to a murkey grey area, an undefined 'unreality; the effect is surreal. Really we all sense this, subconsciously at least, and debate centres around to what extend this causes cognitive dissonance to people and how much they see it as a 'problem'. If you think about it in literal terms, such bizzarre demotion of a load of past history to semi-unreality/inconclusively define grey area has no logical parallels in observable reality or even many precedents in fiction, especially since this shaded unreality did not cover the entirety of Phoenix's backstory, only that past 1-5 timepoint.

The mental compensations required are too extreme to be justifiable. Sure, some of you people have succeeded in making them, but the sheer discontinuity which must be accounted for could not have been merely 'accidental'.

Part of the reason this bizarre 'historical/backstory relevance reset' is marked as something more intriguing, is that it does not consign all Phoenix's backstory to a shadowy unreality, only GS2 and 3. 1-5 is given genuine reference and theme, characterisation, plot and relationship continuity.

I didn't decide I wanted this to be an alternate timeline, oh no, it's like discovering global warming or something. After examining the game, peoples' varying reactions and the discontinuity, this is just the unfortunate conclusion I came to of the writing and production.

GS4 was not produced as, written as or intended to be a follow-up to GS3 and all you people know it, subconciously. This is why you paraphrase it as 'It's Apollo's Turn Now!' and feel genuine attention to characters like Edgeworth or Maya in GS5 or Phoenix again becoming a lawyer are 'unnecessary', because that would render it as a follow-up to GS3.

The concept of two games' worth of Phoenix's character development, relationships and detailed history being rendered redundant and inconsequential to the present at a point arbitrarily two months after '3-5', datewise, in some sudden mass purge because 'A NEW ARC occurred' is simply nonsensical. It's contradictory and has no parallel in reality and few if any in fiction. If there are some enlighten me, but in a series devoted to contradictions and untruths, it's unprecedented.

And in all honesty, I don't think that Takumi or even Matsukawa would ever deem such insanity of making a production standard of 'GS2 and 3 are suddenly irrelevant and redundant, but 1-5 and earlier is not, in terms of plot and characterisation, but it's still supposed to be a follow-up to GS3, timelinewise, some purge of PART of Phoenix's past history just demoted it to irrelevancy.' No, such a decision is far more likely to have occurred in the highly precedented occurrence of them deliberately writing a separate scenario. Fiction abounds with these precedents. NEW STORY, which happens to feature a character, but we all know that the stories aren't necessarily on the same timeline, and if there are enough contradictions, and a production value of suppressing anything which will conclusively align it with GS2/3's actual plot, it suggests it isn't.

So, some people liked GS4 and do not think the 'reality purge' is consequential enough to care. They have not consciously assigned it literally as a separate TIMELINE, but their subconscious has already aligned the 'separate story' in this area, as they think connection to GS3 is irrelevant, inconsequential and redundant, and fixing the 'discontinuity' in GS5 is irrelevant. That the forced redundancy point is not Phoenix's entire backstory, but only time after 1-5, marks it more blatantly as not just a simple decision of 'Phoenix's past is shadowed and that's why old games are deemed redundant in discourse', because his entire backstory is NOT.

And think about how insane this production decision is, if it's a continuation of Phoenix's GS3 scenario: Phoenix's character development, characterisation, plot and relationships from a year 10 years previously are still exerting consequence, bearing and relevance int he new arc and present plot and reality. But, at a timepoint 2 years after the end of 1-5, 2 years of his character development, relationships and plot detail were suddenly deemed functionally inconsequential and irrelevant ['2 months after '3-5''] but this purge did NOT affect the year before GS2.

By the timepoint '2 months after '3-5'', this relevancy redundancy purge had already occurred, belying it's 'character change over 7 years' and it happened before the disbarring, belying that it was cause by the disbarring event.

As we can see, this kind of occurrence in anybody's life scenario is insanity, could only occur in a plot if a character was hit on the head and forgot 2 years of life or something, otherwise carrying the players' suspension of disbelief is implausible,. And i don't think Takumi would insult the fans' intelligence by ever expecting them to swallow such a contradictory production decision to effect the 'new arc' . And it's all hinted in his assertion of 'new story'. [By the way, poor Takumi seemed to have been in serious troubles over being forced to return Phoenix. 'Tied down' etc. That he makes such admissions in a very public Capcom blog is telling.] Such precedents of new timelines for new story/scenario occur constantly in fiction. And, naturally, Matsukawa wanted to continue the NEW STORY at her own story of 1-5. The utter confusion comes, of course, in that 1-5 was conclusively iN Phoenix arc, integrated almost seamlessly into it, so it's not a totally separate scenario from Phoenix arc as a whole, just GS2 and 3, making it less obvious.

Worse, is that the entire GS4 fgame is surreal. I initially assumed they were forced to market it as a follow-up to GS3, because that's what everyone seemed to assume it was, but nobody has been able to provide me with the requested evidence this occurred, all the examples I have found thus far suggest it's UNDEFINED. Phoenix was 'returned', yes, but nothing seems to define it as not a return of his 1-5 character [after alternate 'new story' development'].

And I believe that in terms of writing and concept, this was conclusively an alternate scenario, a continuation of 1-5, and if GS2/3 are redundant but 1-5 and earlier is not, that conclusively renders a separate scenario TIMELINE conceptually, because the '2 previous years becoming redundant but the year before that not', simply is irrational and unprecedented.

What's the official line of release? I believe the official line is 'GREY AREA'. Takumi and Matsukawa intended an alternate timeline/scenario, the closest they could effect to a [desired] genuine separate arc whilst still returning Phoenix to a pivotal role, but due to marketing/acceptability/confusion, it could not be CONCLUSIVELY labelled as one, much as they wanted to break away with their 'new story'. But, neither is it defined as a follow-up to GS2/3, obvious constraints are in effect to prevent it being explicitly defined as one. This suggests Takumi and especially Matsukawa don't want it to be, because it is ACTIVELY prevented from having conclusive and literal associations to make it one.

Having a 'reality relevance reset' of 2 years, but not the year before that, is illogical and irrational and unprecedented. Having those 2 years redundant to the present but not the year before them) becasue this is a separate scenario which included 1-5 but not GS2/3) is totally precedented, reasonable and removes almost all contradictions flawlessly. Separate scenarios in fiction occur on separate timelines. Never is a load of past character development suddenly purged for a new scenario on the SAME timeline of a character's life, save bizzare plot devices to effect it.

Writing a separate sscenario timeline for Phoenix may have been dumb, but it's what occurred. Recontextualising the timeline in hindsight to ret-con it to be a continuation of GS3 is what fans want when they plead for return of old chars/Phoenix a lawyer etc. [as they do not find this 'reality purge' plausible]. Keeping it a separate scenario is what fans demand when they decry such return to GS3 as unnecessary. As it stands, the discontinuity from Gs3 and the assertion 'GS2 and 3 suddenly became redundant in Phoenix's life, but 1-5 did not' is illogical, contradictory and unprecedented if it's supposedly in the same life scenario for Phoenix as GS3.

However, it's clear conceptually this scenario was NOT intended to continue after the specific GS3 STORY, and GS4 is actively prevented from conclusively defining it as such, ever. This is the production value they desired, and the one you Apollo fans adhere to religiously. Due to whatever reasons, they were unable to execute this 100% explicitly. Note the entire game is surreal - how much of 4-4 is to be interpreted literally and where exactly does the 4th-wall breaking begin and end? We'll never have a conclusive answer - I believe even the writers probably view it as 'shadowy undefined grey area'. Much like Phoenix's entire appearance in the game.

And 'grey area' and 'undefined' was probably a poor decision with regards to Phoenix's past and present and literal relation to previous games, as it creates the kind of extreme controversy we see now, fighting over whether and to what extent it should be continued as a separate scenario, ignoring the gross discontinuity, or realigned as a plausible follow-on to GS3, which is its NOT.

Why a separate timeline? Because a new conceptual story with past history missing but some still there before a certain point is an alternate timeline, conceptually, it's what Takumi and Matsukawa were thinking, since a 'reality rest' on the same timeline but not of 1-5 is illogical and unprecedented. Everybody understands this is conclusively defined as the 'new story' Takumi wanted, nobody complains about contradictions, such radical compensations do not have to be made in players' minds, there will be no demand from fans or marketing to return GS3-era plot or chars and compromise the separate story, Phoenix arc can again be properly marketed and enjoyed as a separate property et al.

[If you're so worried about the sanctity of canon, how do you explain the 'alternate timeline' of, say the musical? A second is going to be produced, and it has official blessing. A separate scenario featuring the character Phoenix Wright! Ah, but it's official, and it must be canon, and nobody actually said it was an alternate timeline...]



What alternate explanations. I don't mean whatever imaginary fantasy we invent to compensate for every single plothole. I mean for the production policies as a whole. It's a continuation of Gs3 - but tangible references or consequences of GS3 are actively suppressed/ It's so as not to 'confuse' new players - but a magatama and jurist job are pulled out of thin air and 1-5 would not be confusing? Unreturned chars are not mentioned by name? It's because they're irrelevant and it's a new story. But no precedents of 'new story' rendering large fundamental sections of somebody's life redundant but others not are irrational and unprecedented.

Either it must be explicitly defined as a new story by being on the separate timeline it conceptually is, or it musty be made an actual continuation of gS3 and thus address the gross discontinuity in GS5/GK, GK'2' etc. by returning old chars and explaining their absence. Redundancy reboots of Phoenix's life just after 3-5 are illogical and continuing such bizarre insanity on what is hazily 'maybe the same timeline or maybe not' will just continue to divide the fandom and compromise both Phoenix and Apollo arcs. And that's what it officially is.

'Maybe' the same timeline, since we didn't conclusively define it. Gery area. We wanted To make a new story with association SEPARATION from past timeline, but our return of Phoenix turned it to mud.

So finally conclusively DEFINING the official 'surreal grey area' as 'separate story/scenario, which occurs by definition on a separate timeline, since part of Phoenix's backstory is redundant but part is not' finally gives the writers the official separation they desired, removes all the contradictions, placates all the fans who felt it ruined Phoenix arc etc.


Funny you should mention that as the sole 'argument' to contradict. I never claimed it was marketed as anything but a follow-up to GS3, I assumed it was. But nobody provide me with evidence and the only ads I can find are INDETERMINATE. It's just as plausible to interpret GS4 as a follow-up to 1-5, not GS3, no 'evidence' thus far indicates any kind of 'continuation of GS3' or 'sequel to GS3 or whole Phoenix arc' marketing.

The marketing is half the point anyway, it would not have been wise to market it as an 'alternate scenario' explicitly, we assume Capcom decided, as Phoenix was the 'hook' to force a purchase by old players, and this is less guaranteed if they know it's explicitly an 'alternate scenario'. It's likely this is the major reason that the conceptual alternate scenario did not get to be explicitly called one in its final incarnation. That there is nothing to conclusively define it as a follow-up to GS3 explicitly when a direct ref would have been so simple, indicates they did not want this to be the case either.

This is not a valid comparison to anything.


I don't understand the fuss either. Either it is a separate story like everyone here demands, and thus exists on a separate conceptual timeline consistent with the game where Gs2/3 is functionally irrelevant [but <1-5 is not] OR it is a continuity of GS3 with gross DIScontinuity that people should have no problem with GS3 chars appearing in GS5 et al [because how often does a 'new story' suddenly occur in someone's life and render their relationships and characterisation of 2 years redundant.]

The 'grey area unreality indeterminate' nature of GS4's official relation/production policy to past games, which is the MAXIMUM we can actually take its official designation with regards to GS2/3, is really something which has to be determined , else the series will just continue to be mired in controversy. Official designation as an alternate timeline, given the situation they created, will probably be the best option in both freeing the producer to an actual new story not constrained by fake superficial ties to Phoenix arc [which is what Apollo fans want] and placating fans who didn't like how GS4 compromised Phoenix arc by 'ret-coning' GS2 and 3. Other options would be making it, in hindsight, a plausible continuity of GS3 by patching up in GK/GS5 [but Apollo fans would complain about returning old chars threatening 'Apollo's' arc.]. or simply getting Phoenix out of GS5 and effectively pretending the 'transitional game and its questionable reality and undefined continuity didn't exist/should be forgotten with regards to Phoenix.

Status quo of leaving the continuity as officially/productionwise UNDEFINED is unacceptable.


There were about a billion Superman plots, there are only 2 GS 'arcs' and Apollo is supposedly the main char in the 2nd 'arc. Surely people can get their head around that one, so its' not like there'd be the same level of confusion. [And we already have that obvious AU of the Tazakura, for what it's worth. Imagine trying to mash that one in...]

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AU's get really complicated and confusing, especially to people who are new to fandom. Take Gundam. I'm just going to assume you know nothing about it.

What's the difference between Gundam Wing and Mobile Suit Gundam?

Do Gundam 00 and Gundam 0083 take place on the same timeline or what?

Gundam Seed has a story line sort of similar to First Gundam, do they take place in the same universe or what?

Now considering the fact that Gundam is 30 years old and a huge as crap franchise, this kind of thing is acceptable. Ace Attorney is 8 years old with 4 games and is a relatively small franchise. There's no need for an AU because by changing the main character they eliminated all of the problems that comes with treading the same ground over and over again that Gundam was bound to have. It's pretty funny though; anyone would scoff at a person who bitched about the protagonist of Zeta Gundam being Kamille as opposed to Amuro. I think the appropriate reaction would be doing the same to anyone who suggests Apollo taking the reigns as the lead character was a bad idea.

Icer, that was a huge wall of text!

So you said several times that "1-5 and before are important to Phoenix's life, but the next 2 years aren't.
Let me ask: What, from 1-1 to 1-4 had ANY direct effect on GS4's story?
Let me answer my own question: Absolutely nothing. Not more than GS2-3. In fact, less, because there is the Magatama.

Also, Phoenix in the flashback is more self-confident and experienced than in 1-5. This suggests that he took several cases in the 2 years between them.
You could say "oh yeah, they could be any kind of random cases". But then what about before 1-5? Same, it could be any random cases, as none of them affect GS4 directly.
You may say "he could have got the Magatama any other case." But then, he could have met Ema in any other case. She only said that Phoenix had helped her in a case 10 years ago. It doesn't have to be 1-5, if we follow your logic.
Let me ask: If you need to fill the gaps with any random cases, why not assume that it was really GS1-2-3 that happened?

None of the events in 1-5 affect GS4. It's mentioned only because Ema is present in GS4, and what other cases can be referred? Ema wasn't in anything but 1-5. If Apollo met Adrian, she'd vaguely mention 2-4, or maybe 3-2.

What do we know about Phoenix's backstory in GS4? He was a lawyer for 3 years, he took many mysterious cases, in one of them he helped Ema, and in another one he got the Magatama (from someone who isn't mentioned by name because Apollo doesn't meet her). Oh, and let's not forget that he has a bad feeling about the couch in the defendant lobby and memories of the Magician Grand Prix. And in one case, there was the scarf in the exhaust pipe thing, too.

So what can we conclude from this? Meeting Ema and getting the Magatama have about the same importance, and everything else are Easter Eggs, as you call them. 1-5 isn't more important for Phoenix than anything else.

1-5 is more important to Apollo than Phoenix's other cases, because he met Ema and not characters from other cases in the original trilogy. But to Phoenix, everything is equally important. GS2 and 3 aren't more redundant than GS1.

If GS2-3 were really ret-conned, it would mean something, like... Phoenix talking about Maya as "she was my assistant who lived with me for a couple of months after her sister died, then she returned to her village" without saying anything about the post-1-4 events. And guess what, it's the exact opposite, the only references (without name) for Maya are the Magatama (2-2) and the DVD's (which include 2-4's Nickel Samurai and shows not mentioned in the original trilogy, which suggests that they are newer). And the noodle thing, which isn't a single event, but a continuous one after 1-2.

I think your problem is that 4-4's flashback isn't connected to GS3.
Trust me, new important events can happen to us that are unrelated to everything before (4-4 flashback wasn't related to anything), but life goes on, and the older events are just as important to our life in general as before.

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Icer, I don't care how long you can write posts, you CANNOT tell me how I think conciously or not. All of this "you may say this, but you really think this in the back of your head" stuff is bull.

And Szabu brings up a good point. What DO 1-1 through 1-4 have to do with AJ? Nothing. Aside from what she has said, I know you will bring up another point in your counter argument. The THEME of 1-5 seems to be the same as AJ.

And I ask, why can that not be the same? The same writers wrote 1-5 and AJ. However, that doesn't mean anything. The same group of writers (including many AJ writers) made the original trilogy, so their themes were somewhat similar. Some new writers came for AJ and 1-5, so it's not going to be the same as it was before because of the new imput.

It's like saying that the last Wheel of Time (I think that's the name) book in the series is going to be EXACTLY like how the author, Robert Jordan (I believe that's his name) wrote all of the other books. But guess what? It isn't. Robert Jordan is dead, and someone is taking over with many notes from the author. Can you bet some stuff would change and stuff that wouldn't appear in RJ's books will come up, no matter how this new author tries to make is seem like the other books? Definitely. Because it's involving OTHER writers. It may have the heavy imput of vet writers, but even one change can mean something different for the next product. That is why the themes are alike.

Oh, and story elements =/= themes.

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Thaaaaaat's the one.

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I lol'd

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This post is epic and true to the extreme. Even without the last pic.

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Capefeather threw the grenade...

But how will icer react?

I loved the post, Cape.

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Whoa. Okay. Everybody, let's chill and calm down, shall we?

I was thinking.. because I'm weird and I'm up at 5:15 in the morning.. but.. call me crazy or lack of sleep, BUT...

What if case 1-5 was moved? What if it didn't exactly happen in a order that we thought it did?

We're all assuming that it's in chronological order, but let's remember what Mia said, think outside of the box. The craziest thing must be the truth. Also, if you look in the CR's timeline, it's written right there; both of the cases take place in February, but only two years apart.

Call me crazy, but I have the sneakest suspicion that case 1-5 doesn't belong where it is. I think, it belongs before 3-5. There's some method to this madness so I'll be as brief as possible.

Each trial lasts about 3 days about correct? So, what if this quick sceneario happened:
-Maya and Pearl are at Hazakurain for a few days getting prepared for the trip with Nick in the few coming days.
-Phoenix does the trial with the Skye sisters and all's done and well.
-Edgeworth goes back to whever he's going...

Thus starting the events of 3-5.

Then Polly comes around, and all those events happen. If.. my math is correct, everything should add up decently well. 7 years have gone by and Ema's in the picture with her case in tact.

Also, PW is just coming out to America for the first time on the DS. By this time, Phoenix is already done on all GBA versions, so the writers know what the ending is going to be, so maybe, they thought, "Oh, DS is out, let's do a filler case that sort of ties in with the ending." I really don't think that it can remotely relate to the 1-4 than 3-5.

Anyways, it's just a thought. Take or leave it.

It's crazy.

First of all, it does relate to 1-4, Phoenix, Edgey and others talk about it a lot.
Then, Maya was away for more than merely 3 days, stated near the beginning of 1-5.
None of the characters have the post-JFA development.
Also the ages of the characters...

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Last edited by Szabu on Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Yeah, what Szabu said. I also believe Edgey was away before Nick falls into the river?

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Why the hell would they bother putting a case right before 3-5 in the first game? That doesn't make the slightest bit of sense.

EDIT: Also, I believe that 3-5 happened in Febuary BEFORE 1-5 would have anyway.

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Well, do recall that by the time that the DS version of the game came out to America, the GBA was already done, meaning that the original Gyakuten triology was complete, meaning that everybody knows what happens in the end of 3-5.

I think that the reason that they implimented the case was as they advertised it to be: the usage of the microphone and other fancy stuff on the DS.

Well, remember also, Edgeworth left, came back, saying he knows what it's like to be a prosecutor. He didn't exactly say that he learned what a lawyer was, so when the event of Phoenix falling into the river, he didn't exactly have to come back. He could have just stayed there...

And, if it doesn't add up before the events of 3-5, maybe it happened afterwards. Either way, I still think that it's a really high possibility that 1-5 is before or after the events of 3-5...

Have you read what I said? If nothing else, then the ages of the characters contradict your theory.
And the "original trilogy is complete" argument isn't a good one. There have been many, many midquels in the history of storytelling.

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I'm pretty sure 1-5 takes place before 3-5 and after 1-4 since Phoenix says he hasn't seen Maya for months, the fact that they are STILL talkng about 1-4 and Edgeworth's problems,as well as the ages which were said in previous posts.

I'm playing 4-4 again, and I found something quite interesting that Phoenix says relating to the Magatama issue.


How could Maya give the magatama simply as a present this way? Maya never gave him anything of the such at the ending of 1-4 and that was after the case anyways. Plus, he doesn't even see Maya in 1-5, so how is that even possible?

Exactly, it was during a case, not after.

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Yup.

If you think "Oh, he could of recieve the magatama during another case." Think again. According to your theory, Nick never saw Maya again after the events of 1-4 and her departure to Kurain. Even if he did get it during Maya's depature, wouldn't there be Psyche Locks in 1-5? It'd be pretty late if she send a goodbye present during a case taking place after 1-5 anyway. In GS1, Phoenix doesn't even know much about spirit mediums, aside from the fact that they channel dead people, let alone anything about their magatamas. Which are important as some ordinary necklaces or charm in the first game. If Nick got said magatama via mail, he'd think it would be just a charm to remember her by and wouldn't even know about these Psyche Locks, it wouldn't be one of his most prized possessions. In 4-4, it seems he knows ALOT about these Psyche Locks and has been using them for quite a while, it just so happens that he gets this during a CERTAIN CASE. If this AU theory is true, then coincidence much? Or is this in your eyes, "Just another easter egg."

So pretty much we can just say Hananosei is stupid and that 1-5 is called 1-5 and not 3-6 for a reason.

AUs are stupid in this kind of franchise.

Phoenix Wright is a piano and card player, not a lawyer. If you want a sequel to his story, then beg for a Phoenix Wright: Pianist Hero or Phoenix Wright Poker World Championships 2027.

A poker game with Phoenix Wright.
That's actually a pretty good idea for a mini game.

Didn't they actually sell one as a mobile phone game?

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Don't talk like Phoenix HAS to be a pianist/poker player, from what I played in 4-4 I could see he hates that job, and he only took it to lure Zak over and confront him about what happened. I wouldn't be suprised if he's working a real job by the next game, either head of the jurist system, a lawyer, or even a private investigator.

Actully a GK2 with Phoenix as a private eye would be incredably awesome.

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He's already the head of the jurist system, being the one revived it.
I'm replaying 4-4 right now, and he doesn't say anything about hating his job. He gets mad at the fact that he never gets to play the piano since the customers always whine. :P Phoenix was started playing poker because it was the only talent he was good at he could think of (for the talent agency) and he needed to support Trucy. He didn't even know that Zak was going to show up and thought he disappeared for good.

About the mini-game thing, it'd be pretty fun if they made it. Maybe they could make you play poker for section of a case? Doubt it though.

Okay, so let's get back to the main topic:

Who do you think will return in AJ2 from the old cast?

My guess:

Maya, helping Apollo with one case after Phoenix introduces her to Apollo
Pearl, being with Maya, may also assist Apollo in a case or two, like she did in 2-2 and 2-4
Franziska, could be a prosecutor in one case
Shelly de Killer or his successor, unless he is in GK
Hotti with another new name, that'd be hilarious
Payne, ovbiously
Ema, obviously
Phoenix, obviously
The judge, obviously

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He hates piano. Totally canon.

He is not the 'head of the jurist system being the one who revived it'
. No disbarred hobo would be the one allowed to revive the jurist system, he just got to manage a single test trial. There's no confirmation it's ongoing [or that juries will be implemented in future after the trial, very ambiguous all round this game] and it would have been higher-ups who 'revived' it, he just got that one job.

Capefeather I will reply to you when I manage to get some sleep.

@Szabu: We know nothing about GS5 so we have no idea who will return. We don't know which direction they are taking with the series. Theres' not much point in making wild guesses with nothing to support them.

@Hananosei - Are you saying they should ret-con 1-5 to MOVE it to after 3-5 belatedly so it makes more sense re. GS3 - 1-5 - GS4, since it's a 'spiritual interquel' after GS3? Or are you saying it is after 3-5?

The problem is, when it was written, it fitted and was designed to fit between 1-4 and GS2 just fine. Moving it would create more plot holes than it fixed, quite a lot would have to be changed. They should simply have thought a little harder if they wanted to make a sequel to 1-5 and have it not asynchronous with GS3. It's true if 1-5 was edited to be after 3-5, a lot of the discontinuity to the 'new arc' would be fixed, but 1-5 has been out for years so they're not 'updating' it now.

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Geez icer, it's only speculation since logic dictates that it will be Apollo at the lead again.

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I could imagine that Phoenix will be part of the jury in the future and completely merge into his work. Encouraged, he'll get out of his jogging suit and starts looking for another job to make money for his second bar exam. We'd then have another mentore figure, and just think what a lovely tutorial case that'd make. ("Oh, Justice, I still know how to do it, you have to press the Court Records button!") Alternately, Maya comes in to kick his ass in the right direction.

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Now that they've done most of the new arc main character sprites for GS4, they could start not being lazy and make new sprites for Phoenix, a lawyer again. And Maya, too.

I mean, they probably won't continue the "omg, Phoenix is disbarred, now he is a poker / piano player" storyline, since there isn't any more to add to that topic. There's no reason not to make him retake the bar exam and be a lawyer again for fanservice and simply making sense.

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What are you talking about? A disbarred lawyer turned poker/piano player/talent agency owner sounds like it would make an amazing sitcom.

Yeah maybe, too bad this is a video game series. :P

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