Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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The Objector wrote:
Just kind of asking, if you guys played a game like, say, Zelda, and in the new installment, they took out Link and you had to play as a random, completely new guy that was unheard of until that game, and they made Link a hobo who gave you cryptical advice that only served his own means as it manipulated you into regaining his honor?
I, personally, would be ticked off.
I, personally, would be ticked off.
actually, most of the links are different. in phantom hourglass, you meet a guy who is hinted to be an old link, maybe from wind waker, and he gives you advice and training (kind of).
Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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L_J wrote:
The Objector wrote:
Just kind of asking, if you guys played a game like, say, Zelda, and in the new installment, they took out Link and you had to play as a random, completely new guy that was unheard of until that game, and they made Link a hobo who gave you cryptical advice that only served his own means as it manipulated you into regaining his honor?
I, personally, would be ticked off.
I, personally, would be ticked off.
actually, most of the links are different. in phantom hourglass, you meet a guy who is hinted to be an old link, maybe from wind waker, and he gives you advice and training (kind of).
Not to turn this into a Zelda discussion or derail this thread any more, but the Link you play in that game, is apparently the Link from Wind Waker, and the game itself is a direct sequel.
Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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Percei wrote:
L_J wrote:
The Objector wrote:
Just kind of asking, if you guys played a game like, say, Zelda, and in the new installment, they took out Link and you had to play as a random, completely new guy that was unheard of until that game, and they made Link a hobo who gave you cryptical advice that only served his own means as it manipulated you into regaining his honor?
I, personally, would be ticked off.
I, personally, would be ticked off.
actually, most of the links are different. in phantom hourglass, you meet a guy who is hinted to be an old link, maybe from wind waker, and he gives you advice and training (kind of).
Not to turn this into a Zelda discussion or derail this thread any more, but the Link you play in that game, is apparently the Link from Wind Waker, and the game itself is a direct sequel.
well, it's kind of sort of related because we were talking about phoenix being a cryptic advice giving hobo, and how this doesn't happen in zelda games?
anyways... what's he going to look like without that beanie? (if he ever takes it off?)
Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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L_J wrote:
anyways... what's he going to look like without that beanie? (if he ever takes it off?)
Well, assuming he doesn't re-style it, I would say just like medium length regular black hair.
Although he may have hat hair.
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Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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Dekuran wrote:
Assistant, It shouldn't be Trucy twice in a row. D:
Nah, AA is too attached to its "Perky Teen Girl" sidekicks.
If Gumshoe wasn't so damn awesome, he would never have gotten a spot.
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Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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BlackJack wrote:
L_J wrote:
anyways... what's he going to look like without that beanie? (if he ever takes it off?)
Well, assuming he doesn't re-style it, I would say just like medium length regular black hair.
Although he may have hat hair.
Hehe you want a good idea? I'd check Ceres' GS4 phoenix Sprites, because they are awesome.
but @Dekuran
Ummm Maya was the sidekick 3 times in a row. Nick's too cool to be an assistant, they always have a degree of incompetence or weakness about them. Something GS4 Phoenix is completely free of.
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Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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Kind of like Ender Wiggin + Matt Engarde divided by 2.
Whoever said nothing was impossible obviously never tried to close a revolving door.
"Suspense msuic plays" Oh crap, SAVESAVESAVE! Oh wait, that's my phone. And the caller ID is... MOM!?
"Cornered music plays"
Oh, ****
"Suspense msuic plays" Oh crap, SAVESAVESAVE! Oh wait, that's my phone. And the caller ID is... MOM!?
"Cornered music plays"
Oh, ****
Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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The Objector wrote:
Yeah... Phoenix in GS4 almost scarily reminded me of Matt Engarde. Manipulative, willing to do anything to achieve his goals, really smart, calculating, cold...
Kind of like Ender Wiggin + Matt Engarde divided by 2.
Kind of like Ender Wiggin + Matt Engarde divided by 2.
DON'T EVEN BRING MATH INTO THIS!
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Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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BlackJack wrote:
The Objector wrote:
Yeah... Phoenix in GS4 almost scarily reminded me of Matt Engarde. Manipulative, willing to do anything to achieve his goals, really smart, calculating, cold...
Kind of like Ender Wiggin + Matt Engarde divided by 2.
Kind of like Ender Wiggin + Matt Engarde divided by 2.
DON'T EVEN BRING MATH INTO THIS!
Hehe whoever Ender Wiggin is,
Point is GS4 Nick is like an untouchable, cool calculated and zetta smart.
He's tougher than the Kitaki boss in my eyes.
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Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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Ender Wiggin is the main character of a book called `Ender`s Game`. It`s good.
Whoever said nothing was impossible obviously never tried to close a revolving door.
"Suspense msuic plays" Oh crap, SAVESAVESAVE! Oh wait, that's my phone. And the caller ID is... MOM!?
"Cornered music plays"
Oh, ****
"Suspense msuic plays" Oh crap, SAVESAVESAVE! Oh wait, that's my phone. And the caller ID is... MOM!?
"Cornered music plays"
Oh, ****
Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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Phoenix, most definitely.
Whoever said nothing was impossible obviously never tried to close a revolving door.
"Suspense msuic plays" Oh crap, SAVESAVESAVE! Oh wait, that's my phone. And the caller ID is... MOM!?
"Cornered music plays"
Oh, ****
"Suspense msuic plays" Oh crap, SAVESAVESAVE! Oh wait, that's my phone. And the caller ID is... MOM!?
"Cornered music plays"
Oh, ****
Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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The Objector wrote:
If Phoenix`s innocence was completely proven and he did get his badge back, then the problem would be nobody would want Apollo as their attorney, they would want Phoenix. Would you rather have Phoenix or Apollo as your attorney?
Phoenix, most definitely.
Phoenix, most definitely.
I don't know. Apollo has superpowers.
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Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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BlackJack wrote:
The Objector wrote:
If Phoenix`s innocence was completely proven and he did get his badge back, then the problem would be nobody would want Apollo as their attorney, they would want Phoenix. Would you rather have Phoenix or Apollo as your attorney?
Phoenix, most definitely.
Phoenix, most definitely.
I don't know. Apollo has superpowers.
Yeah you can't ignore his CHORDS OF STEEL! Besides theres always the possibilty that the doubt in the public's eye will never disappear that Phoenix is a shady character.
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Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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Herr Blondie wrote:
BlackJack wrote:
The Objector wrote:
If Phoenix`s innocence was completely proven and he did get his badge back, then the problem would be nobody would want Apollo as their attorney, they would want Phoenix. Would you rather have Phoenix or Apollo as your attorney?
Phoenix, most definitely.
Phoenix, most definitely.
I don't know. Apollo has superpowers.
Yeah you can't ignore his CHORDS OF STEEL!
While this is true, I meant the perceive power.
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Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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The Objector wrote:
If Phoenix`s innocence was completely proven and he did get his badge back, then the problem would be nobody would want Apollo as their attorney, they would want Phoenix. Would you rather have Phoenix or Apollo as your attorney?
Phoenix, most definitely.
Phoenix, most definitely.
Except for lingering suspicions, the fact he's been out of practice for seven years, and the fact different trials happen at the same time as opposed to conveniently seperated days.
Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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Robin Goodfellow wrote:
The Objector wrote:
If Phoenix`s innocence was completely proven and he did get his badge back, then the problem would be nobody would want Apollo as their attorney, they would want Phoenix. Would you rather have Phoenix or Apollo as your attorney?
Phoenix, most definitely.
Phoenix, most definitely.
Except for lingering suspicions, the fact he's been out of practice for seven years, and the fact different trials happen at the same time as opposed to conveniently seperated days.
Yeah besides, it'll always go down that Apollo was the truth seeking lawyer that cleared Nick's name and also has a perfectly clean (if small) win record so he's also looking quite promising to the potential client.
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Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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dud239 wrote:
Victim maybe.
Nope
He won't die
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Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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Apollo has superpowers... Phoenix has skill...
I would take veteran+7 years of playing poker > newbie who has to have the prosecutor and his 15-year old assistant do everything for him.
Whoever said nothing was impossible obviously never tried to close a revolving door.
"Suspense msuic plays" Oh crap, SAVESAVESAVE! Oh wait, that's my phone. And the caller ID is... MOM!?
"Cornered music plays"
Oh, ****
"Suspense msuic plays" Oh crap, SAVESAVESAVE! Oh wait, that's my phone. And the caller ID is... MOM!?
"Cornered music plays"
Oh, ****
Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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The Objector wrote:
Well, if Phoenix was cleared that meant all wrongdoing that he supposedly did never really happened, or at least he didn`t do it. So no shadiness at all.
Apollo has superpowers... Phoenix has skill...
I would take veteran+7 years of playing poker > newbie who has to have the prosecutor and his 15-year old assistant do everything for him.
Apollo has superpowers... Phoenix has skill...
I would take veteran+7 years of playing poker > newbie who has to have the prosecutor and his 15-year old assistant do everything for him.
Like Phoenix did ANYTHING for himself, he didn't really start to get independant until the END of case 3-5, he always had someone hold his hand through it, Edgey, Franziska, Maya, Mia, etc., and besides, the most aggressive moment he had was when he broke down the door in 2-4. Apollo isn't much better, but at least he is more independant.
And by the by, isn't poker a game where the major elements are hiding and deciet?
Now this isn't to say I don't like Phoenix, but people put him in this holy light like he's the greatest person ever. He was NOT, I kind of find Apollo to be a more interesting character, but oh well. Anyway, to stay on topic, even though this thread is so off the rails... never mind.
So, there are really only two possible roles Phoenix should play, and will likely be the ones he WILL play.
1) Be kept the same. As a mentor, and cryptic assistant when you need it most, and he'll offer advice and help when he can, but he won't have a major role.
or (what I think should and likely will happen)
2) Be gradually phased out of the series, with his final appearance that wraps up everything in the final case. After that he'll have no reason to show up anymore, and probably won't, save a cameo in a spin off or in another case.
Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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Percei wrote:
Like Phoenix did ANYTHING for himself, he didn't really start to get independant until the END of case 3-5, he always had someone hold his hand through it,
And Apollo had someone do everything and solve everything for him. The door was in 2-2 and how does 'aggressive' = better lawyer?
*votes for Phoenix, but you all knew that was coming*
You're assuming the game will be in the same format as GS4 with Apollo as 'main' playable 'protagonist', but really, it could be anything.
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Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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Spoiler:
Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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The Objector wrote:
Well, if Phoenix was cleared that meant all wrongdoing that he supposedly did never really happened, or at least he didn`t do it. So no shadiness at all.
That kind of trust break needs time and work to build back up. The average person isn't gonna go, "Well, it turns out he was innocent." And think of him the same was that they did 7 years ago.
The Objector wrote:
Apollo has superpowers... Phoenix has skill...
Which is why they should team up. Tackle cases together. Phoenix's experience and Magatama, together with Apollo's zeal and Perceive power, would be the most kickass detective/lawyer team ever. Even if Phoenix didn't get his badge back, he could do the footwork during investigative phases (where the Magatama is most useful), and Apollo could handle the in-court sessions (where the Perceive power is most effective).
Percei wrote:
Like Phoenix did ANYTHING for himself, he didn't really start to get independant until the END of case 3-5, he always had someone hold his hand through it, Edgey, Franziska, Maya, Mia, etc., and besides, the most aggressive moment he had was when he broke down the door in 2-4. Apollo isn't much better, but at least he is more independant.
Bullshit. Apollo was just as bad as Phoenix. If not worse. In 4-1 and 4-4, Apollo was a lawyer puppet for Phoenix. And in 4-2 and 4-3, Apollo received monumentous help from Trucy.
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Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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I agree with BlackJack, teamong Apollo and Phoenix is a cool idea - or couldnt Nick just give Apollo the Magatama? It worked for Edgey in 3-5.
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Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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Anyway, back on-topic.
grim_tales wrote:
I agree with BlackJack, teamong Apollo and Phoenix is a cool idea - or couldnt Nick just give Apollo the Magatama? It worked for Edgey in 3-5.
He could, but I think Phoenix as a real mentor would be better. Although, if I got my pipe dream (which will not happen
),then the game would feature 8-10 cases and the storyline switched back and forth between Apollo and Phoenix (and maybe even Edgeworth or Godot, for a special case, as in 3-5) as playable characters.
Apollo obviously needs to fleshed out as a character, so that would help him. Slapping him in GS5 without a mentor is very much against precedent in the GS series, so I don't think that's even an issue.
And many people on this thread say that Phoenix's character development has run its course. OBJECTION! Phoenix's personality and overall demeanor was almost completely different in AJ. Seven years out of the courtroom and in a basement playing poker had a profound effect on him. Not to mention the experience of losing everything you held dear and no one trusting you anymore. I think that there is serious character development in how Phoenix dealt with that that can be adequately explored now that Phoenix has been exonerated.
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Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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BlackJack wrote:
When the opposition falls back on obscene references to make a point, you know you've won.
Anyway, back on-topic.
He could, but I think Phoenix as a real mentor would be better. Although, if I got my pipe dream (which will not happen ),
then the game would feature 8-10 cases and the storyline switched back and forth between Apollo and Phoenix (and maybe even Edgeworth or Godot, for a special case, as in 3-5) as playable characters.
Apollo obviously needs to fleshed out as a character, so that would help him. Slapping him in GS5 without a mentor is very much against precedent in the GS series, so I don't think that's even an issue.
And many people on this thread say that Phoenix's character development has run its course. OBJECTION! Phoenix's personality and overall demeanor was almost completely different in AJ. Seven years out of the courtroom and in a basement playing poker had a profound effect on him. Not to mention the experience of losing everything you held dear and no one trusting you anymore. I think that there is serious character development in how Phoenix dealt with that that can be adequately explored now that Phoenix has been exonerated.
Anyway, back on-topic.
grim_tales wrote:
I agree with BlackJack, teamong Apollo and Phoenix is a cool idea - or couldnt Nick just give Apollo the Magatama? It worked for Edgey in 3-5.
He could, but I think Phoenix as a real mentor would be better. Although, if I got my pipe dream (which will not happen
),then the game would feature 8-10 cases and the storyline switched back and forth between Apollo and Phoenix (and maybe even Edgeworth or Godot, for a special case, as in 3-5) as playable characters.
Apollo obviously needs to fleshed out as a character, so that would help him. Slapping him in GS5 without a mentor is very much against precedent in the GS series, so I don't think that's even an issue.
And many people on this thread say that Phoenix's character development has run its course. OBJECTION! Phoenix's personality and overall demeanor was almost completely different in AJ. Seven years out of the courtroom and in a basement playing poker had a profound effect on him. Not to mention the experience of losing everything you held dear and no one trusting you anymore. I think that there is serious character development in how Phoenix dealt with that that can be adequately explored now that Phoenix has been exonerated.
Geez this topic takes off if you leave it for a day....
The team would work awesomely that way but...really lets face it a main character needs both. Most of the plot twists are revealed in the investigation first, like 2-4 and Engarde. I really think to develop a main character properly you need to have them experience these things first hand. After all technically for a good portion of 4-4 the Nick investigating Apollo defending team is true and its pretty screwed up.
I'm perfectly ok if he stays as a cool mentor for Apollo, someone you can go to and show evidence to to get leads and tips on how you should build your case or where to check next.
And rather than use the Magatama more often I'd like to simply see the Percieve power used outside the courtroom.
I wouldn't say character development of Nick is a big issue....its events in his life that are done with, sure he's had a dramatic life change but all he's been doing is spying on Apollo and playing poker for the seven years. I wouldn't think theres much to explore with him, unless you wanna fix Nick's moral compass so he's back to his old ways.
Besides that I really think it's vital for Apollo's sucess that he is focused on more than Nick's story.
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Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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BlackJack wrote:
When the opposition falls back on obscene references to make a point, you know you've won.
excuse me? masturbation is a word, and just because i used it doesn't mean i was making an obscene reference. grow up.
Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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Herr Blondie wrote:
The team would work awesomely that way but...really lets face it a main character needs both. Most of the plot twists are revealed in the investigation first, like 2-4 and Engarde.
True. Which is why (in my pipe dream
) there were so many cases. So that they both could do both.Also, why not make the cases bigger (even if there's still only 4 to 5) so that there's room for both.
Something that could please everyone would be if Nick does become a lawyer again, but the story doesn't focus on him (in a similar way to AJ, you don't see him a whole lot in 4-2 and 4-3). But he handles his own off-screen cases. With the final, epic case being that you play through both Apollo's and Nick's seemingly unrelated cases and finding out there was more to it than meets the eye.
Herr Blondie wrote:
After all technically for a good portion of 4-4 the Nick investigating Apollo defending team is true and its pretty screwed up.
To be exact, the Mason System was pretty screwed up. And Apollo did little meaningful investigating in 4-4. It was mostly Nick. And the actual process of his gathering info wasn't messed up. Just the Mason System made it appear that way.
Herr Blondie wrote:
I'm perfectly ok if he stays as a cool mentor for Apollo, someone you can go to and show evidence to to get leads and tips on how you should build your case or where to check next.
This is most likely the road Capcom will take.
Herr Blondie wrote:
And rather than use the Magatama more often I'd like to simply see the Percieve power used outside the courtroom.
Well, I wanted to see the Magatama used in court, but that never happened. The Magatama happened in 4-4's investigation though. I don't see Capcom breaking precedent here.
Herr Blondie wrote:
I wouldn't say character development of Nick is a big issue....its events in his life that are done with, sure he's had a dramatic life change but all he's been doing is spying on Apollo and playing poker for the seven years. I wouldn't think theres much to explore with him, unless you wanna fix Nick's moral compass so he's back to his old ways.
Suffice it to say I disagree. There isn't an intelligent argument to make. It's all opinion here.
Herr Blondie wrote:
Besides that I really think it's vital for Apollo's success that he is focused on more than Nick's story.
That is most definately true. See my explanation above. :
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Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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But BJ the Mason system was the way of conveying information between them both unless you want a massive summary scene before court showing Apollo's reaction.
But where would you further develop Phoenix's character if you could? Just so I got an example of what your thinking.
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Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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Herr Blondie wrote:
Sorry Gozu it was an obscene word and you were using it to reference the progress of the series...thats an obscene reference.
that's what phoenix being in gs4 was - masturbation. he was in there for no reason other than to sell copies of the game, and frankly he had no place in the story whatsoever. he was in there for self-gratification of the series. that is what masturbation means.
Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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Herr Blondie wrote:
BJ
Oh my gawd, BJ. Quit being obscene. I'm the winner.
As for Phoenix Wright. I think he should remain an important figure in the overall story, but I think his usefulness should be limited and the series should be done with him about half way through. In the end, Apollo should be groomed to be the end all be all protagonist of the story and I don't think Phoenix should even have a role in the finale.
Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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Pickens wrote:
Herr Blondie wrote:
BJ
Oh my gawd, BJ. Quit being obscene. I'm the winner.
As for Phoenix Wright. I think he should remain an important figure in the overall story, but I think his usefulness should be limited and the series should be done with him about half way through. In the end, Apollo should be groomed to be the end all be all protagonist of the story and I don't think Phoenix should even have a role in the finale.
I know people keep demanding for Nick to be vital in the finale...but thats the big important one, the middle ones are usually just....filler and I figure if Nick is included in the final case then he'll forever be associated as the guy Apollo couldn't do without and therefore can never live up to.
Made by Chesu+Zombee
You thought you could be safe in your courts, with your laws and attorneys to protect you. In this world only I am law, my word is fact, my power is absolute.
Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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Gozu wrote:
he was in there for self-gratification of the series. that is what masturbation means.
mas⋅tur⋅ba⋅tion
/ˌmæstərˈbeɪʃən/ [mas-ter-bey-shuhn]
–noun
1. the stimulation or manipulation of one's own genitals, esp. to orgasm; sexual self-gratification.
2. the stimulation, by manual or other means exclusive of coitus, of another's genitals, esp. to orgasm.
self-grat⋅i⋅fi⋅ca⋅tion
/ˈsɛlfˌgrætəfɪˈkeɪʃən, ˌsɛlf-/ [self-grat-uh-fi-key-shuhn, self-]
–noun
the act of pleasing or satisfying oneself, esp. the gratifying of one's own impulses, needs, or desires.
Not the same.
Herr Blondie wrote:
But BJ the Mason system was the way of conveying information between them both unless you want a massive summary scene before court showing Apollo's reaction.
Actually it conveyed info to the Jury. I imagine that sometime between the first and second trial Phoenix let Apollo in on everything. Except his mother.
Herr Blondie wrote:
But where would you further develop Phoenix's character if you could? Just so I got an example of what your thinking.
Like how he reacts to being in court again after being shamefully thrown out for 7 years. Also, how he deals with witnesses and informants after the slackening of his moral fiber.
Pickens wrote:
Herr Blondie wrote:
BJ
Oh my gawd, BJ. Quit being obscene. I'm the winner.Hardy Har Har.
Pickens wrote:
As for Phoenix Wright. I think he should remain an important figure in the overall story, but I think his usefulness should be limited and the series should be done with him about half way through. In the end, Apollo should be groomed to be the end all be all protagonist of the story and I don't think Phoenix should even have a role in the finale.
I don't personally think he should ever be completely written out. He was the protagonist in the first 3 games. You can't just kill him off like that. I don't want this series to screw continuity like many JRPGs.
Herr Blondie wrote:
if Nick is included in the final case then he'll forever be associated as the guy Apollo couldn't do without and therefore can never live up to.
Not really. Mia was heavily included and instrumental in 3-5, but we all know that Phoenix is a competent, skilled lawyer despite that.
Thanks to Lind_L_Tailor for the badass sig!
Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
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Quote:
Not really. Mia was heavily included and instrumental in 3-5, but we all know that Phoenix is a competent, skilled lawyer despite that.
I guess I see your point...but somehow I feel it's different for Phoenix...if he proved instrumental I'd feel people would be more about "Apollo can't do squat without Phoenix" than Mia, after all AJ1 was heavily Phoenix/Klavier dependant on answering some questions I feel it'd be a great blow to Apollo's popularity and competence, much greater than Phoenix woulda gotten for Mia helping him.
With Mia helping him in 3-5 it was more like....she was giving him her blessing to beat Godot and suceed, I feel if Nick did the same for Apollo it would seem more like a bailout.
This is all just a feeling I got though
As for your ideas on how to explore his character....being in court and talking to witnesses...all really things he'd need to do properly if he was playable in the main...something I'm dead against, and if he's only doing it offscreen I imagine he'd only comment on something like "Heh it feels weird talking to the accused again"
so it wouldn't be developed much either.
Made by Chesu+Zombee
You thought you could be safe in your courts, with your laws and attorneys to protect you. In this world only I am law, my word is fact, my power is absolute.
Re: What part should Phoenix play in GS5?
no, nothing
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BlackJack wrote:
Gozu wrote:
he was in there for self-gratification of the series. that is what masturbation means.
mas⋅tur⋅ba⋅tion
/ˌmæstərˈbeɪʃən/ [mas-ter-bey-shuhn]
–noun
1. the stimulation or manipulation of one's own genitals, esp. to orgasm; sexual self-gratification.
2. the stimulation, by manual or other means exclusive of coitus, of another's genitals, esp. to orgasm.
self-grat⋅i⋅fi⋅ca⋅tion
/ˈsɛlfˌgrætəfɪˈkeɪʃən, ˌsɛlf-/ [self-grat-uh-fi-key-shuhn, self-]
–noun
the act of pleasing or satisfying oneself, esp. the gratifying of one's own impulses, needs, or desires.
Not the same.
this is semantics anyway
what does that change about my point, exactly
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