I suppose. Icer's right for, the fifth time?



And how would you know? Has Apollo been put in such a situation?



Completely true. But the same goes for Phoenix, again, moreso.

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Yay! What were the other 4 times???

If Phoenix wasn't awesome, rather than just 'hyped', he wouldn't have spawned another 2 games, and a 4th game which was really about him as well...

You can't really use that to argue Phoenix>Apollo, because Apollo has not yet reached the end of his run. We don't know how many more games Apollo will spawn.

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I'd like to see a relative of one of the criminals try to kill Phoenix in a revenge attack. This attack, though unsuccesful, forces Phoenix and Trucy into the witness protection program, thus making sure that Phoenix (and Trucy) are written out of the AA games permanently. Meanwhile, however a mysterious girl with a key in her hair turns up at the Wright Talent Agency...


Either that, or (as I said in the crack thread), the whole of AJ turns out to be nothing but a dream that Phoenix had when he was lying on his sofa, drunk.

I got the impression Apollo was still nervous even though he covers it up by saying he's fine.

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***Warning: incoming wall of text. Sorry, its just the way I go about forums, I tend to lurk a lot and have everything build up for one mega-post***

I’m going to have to agree with Icer for the most part, but for different reasons. I wasn’t really satisfied with the direction that GS4 went with. On one hand you have a fresh new arc, new protagonist, sidekick and all. But on the other the main character from the previous arc still plays a major role in the plot. I believe in an interview the creators stated that they wanted to strike a balance between these two “contradictions”. Unfortunately, I felt that this balance, was, well, off-balance. It ultimately came off as indecisive and confused. I still say GS4 was a good game, but the main character wasn’t the selling point, it was the ‘side characters’ that really engaged me.

What bothers me about Apollo is not the qualities (or lack thereof) of his personality. In fact, I think it’s a good thing that Phoenix and Apollo are distinct from one another. Apollo’s naiveté and conforming behavior can be used to set up some very interesting plots and gives him a lot of growing room for future development. The troublesome part was rather the lack of ‘establishment’ of his character. What do I mean by this? Well, when introducing a new main character, you generally would want your audience to form an attachment with him/her, so that we would want to know more and keep playing. Who is this guy, what are his motivations, why is he the way he is, why should I care about him?
Apollo just didn’t get there.

Playing through Apollo Justice™ made me want to know more about Phoenix than Apollo (I know its GS4 in Japan, I’m just using the English title to emphasize my point). By having Phoenix play a strong role as he did in the story, the writers also inadvertently gave great importance to the state of his friends as well, since his relationship to them forms a great deal of his identity and motivations. The fact that Maya, Edgeworth et al. were not mentioned just makes it all the more unsettling. What happened to them? Why didn’t they help him during his time of need? Was there some sort of falling out? Sure, they don’t have to tell us, but that doesn’t stop us from wanting to know.

If that wasn’t enough of a distraction you have the fact that the main plot was planned, manipulated and driven by Phoenix and his Secret Seven-Year Mission. He knew about Apollo’s identity (and ‘recruited’ him for it), the Gramarye’s dark legacy and everything else of significance. The climax of the game was to bring closure to the disbarment issue, bring Kristoph to justice and plug the Jurist system. Also, despite his destitute appearance, Phoenix had maintained a great deal of power and influence--enough to land the position as the chairman of the jurist system experiment, you just don’t give that to a hobo. How did he come by all this? Was there anyone helping him in the shadows? We know he has at least one detective who feels strongly indebted to him, are there more players in Phoenix’s power politics? How? Why? The explanation given in 4-4 wasn’t enough.
Oh, Polly, he’s still here? For all intents he just may have well been in storage for the past 22 years.

While I’m sure the writers wanted to resolve everything, make Apollo the new compelling attorney and wrap up Phoenix’s involvement—but there’s only so much you can cram into a DS cart. As was said before, they tried to strike a balance …


Unfortunately this argument just doesn’t do Apollo any justice. In a way, Phoenix and GS1 set a precedence of what we should expect from future installments. I bet there wouldn’t of been as much controversy over this whole issue if Apollo, with his current personality and (to-be-developed) backstory, were the original Ace Attorney. However, by not having the new guy be just as compelling and engaging as the old, and giving him a co-starring role, you end up with what we have now. Sure you could say that there are potentially 2 more games for Apollo to star in, but that doesn’t change anything, first impressions are very important. What there should have been were more cases like 4-3. Phoenix plays a minimal role and we get to see a better-developed Apollo do his thing and grow his character. That or at least not make Phoenix be the shadowy puppeteer that he was.

All that being said, this thread is dangerously teetering on completely derailing into a debate about GS4 and the old cast, which I’m sure there’s already a thread for. So I’m gonna shift gears and talk about GS5 now.

I love the GS series, I want to see it succeed and I want more of it. For GS5 they need to shift the balance more towards Apollo’s side. But they just can’t ditch Phoenix and relegate him to cameo-only roles. The hole’s been dug, too much was invested in GS4 for that; there’s still a bunch of nagging questions that need answering, leaving them unresolved would mean more irate fans. Things I would like them to address are:
1. Give us some fan-service and resolve what’s going on with old friends, but don’t over do it!
2. Wrap up Phoenix’s involvement and gradually have him step down, probably the hardest thing to do.
3. Drive at Apollo’s character, need backstory, tragedy, drama, whatever.
4. A more aggressive prosecutor, Klavier was just too nice, we need someone to really challenge Apollo and make him earn that win.
5. More Ema, for some reason, I can relate to her character a lot.

I’m sure Capcom knows what they’re doing; they’ve already proven that they can create likable characters and compelling plots & interactions.

That's a good post. I agree with you I want to see more of Apollo's character. In AJ, I don't feel his character was fully developed. As you say, it was a good game, but not as satisfying as JFA or T&T. Even from AA1 to JFA you could tell there had been development/changes in Phoenix's character. I loved Phoenix too, you felt a real attachment to him, emotionally somehow. Maybe it was the way he was written.

Apollo? Hmmm. At the end he says he doesnt understand law, so why did he become a lawyer? I think we should be told. Was he a magician at first? In AJ, I think they played the suspense theme too much.

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I read the first posts on this topic, and I have to agree with the "return-of-PW-characters" issue. Personally, I REALLY wish that they re-appear in GS5 and all that (I'm even planning on writing a fanfiction about it!), but then again, this is Apollo's era now. There's not use in bringing back PW-era characters, because then it would feel like playing PW:AA all over again. Besides, I'd like to see more of the AJ:AA life: new characters, new rivals, new stories. ^^

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Hang on, is this GS5 Ideas or "Official Phoenix vs. Apollo Thread"?

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I wasn't. Dramatica was saying Phoenix is too hyped because he was the main char, otherwise everybody wouldn't like him. But Apollo has spawned exactly zero games [GS4 was most conclusively about Phoenix.]. And Apollo was spawned by Phoenix. If GS4 and Apollo was the first game, I doubt there would have been a GS[AJ]2, certainly not on the weight of Apollo's character.


Every thread in this forum turns into that, because that is the main issue concerning the hypothetical GS5. Phoenix, Apollo and if/how/to what extent they are executed. And it's all the fault of the GS4 writers for making the game so ambiguous, not making the protagonist the main character or developing him into something resembling a compelling main character, making Phoenix the main character but not the main protagonist... etc. Seriously, all they had to do was make Apollo show initiative to clear Phoenix's name himself, and all the Phoenix fans would like him because he helped Phoenix. But no, Phoenix cleared Phoenix's name. Apollo didn't even know what he was doing most of the time.

And part of the issue is, I've said it before and I've said it again, somebody got the insane idea to make GS4 some bad ironic deconstruction on GS1 [1-4 and 1-5 most particularly.] And GS4 Phoenix still takes the role of GS1 Phoenix, the main character. To add to the total irony, instead of the player playing as Phoenix and the player manipulating him, [we tell Phoenix where to go, what to present..] in GS4, the player mostly plays as some 3rd-party avatar [Apollo] who gets manipulated by Phoenix. The real identity of the player is probably as a jurist, and it's symbolically Phoenix on trial, since the main um 'star' is the jurist systems.

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No, i'[m pretty sure there would have been. GS2 didn't come by on the strength of Phoenix's character alone.

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No, i'[m pretty sure there would have been. GS2 didn't come by on the strength of Phoenix's character alone.

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No, it also came on the strength of the compelling characterisations of Edgeworth and Maya and their interactions revolving around Phoenix, and the compelling plot constructed around the 3 of them. There was no such parallel for Apollo. Badge Wearing Pawn X would have filled the role just as well, as the token familial revelations have zero impact on Apollo or the story. [Or a robot, as Capefeather suggested :)]

My theory is that Polly and Nick visit Maya at the temple, and Nick gets murdered, and of course Maya getting framed AGAIN. We could even see a Teenage Pearls! Capcom would SO do something like this.

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How about Nick and Polly go to the temple, and Apollo gets murdered? And to clear Maya's name, Phoenix commits suicide, gives Pearl his badge (it worked before...) and have her channel him and subsequently clear Maya's name. Now Apollo and Phoenix are dead, and we can move to NY have some other random new attorney to play as.

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What about if Nick isn't even in the country, and neither is Trucy? Another of his "top secret missions". Of course, he likely wouldn't just leave Apollo to his own devices with his offices, so he sends an aquaintence to watch over him and make sure he stays out of trouble. Enter a new support character - a bodyguard.

I imagine her as female to keep tradition, a little older than Apollo, inquisitive and not exactly academically smart (more street-smart). This would make it easy to make Case 5-1 work as a tutorial - she keeps asking Apollo what everyone is blabbling about with "Court Records"and "Cross-Examination" etc.

Now, when I thought of a bodyguard character, the next thing that crossed my mind is pretty understandable - one of the cases could be her as the defendant, charged with murder while she was protecting Apollo from an attacker! On top of that, Apollo himself is a witness to the whole thing! And since he is a witness to it, he actually believes that she did it. Therefore, he declines to defend her, and things look grim..

"HOLD IT!!!!"

Since Capcom seem to insist on Phoenix staying in the series, this case could guest Phoenix as the Defense Attorney (GS4 did imply he was thinking of going back to law). So, Phoenix is the defense, Apollo is a witness, and the bodyguard support character is the defendant!

Of course, I don't think this would be the last case. It is Apollo's game, (well, presumably). It could be the second to last.

I like those ideas about a new bodyguard character.
How about Trucy being accused of murder or would it be too much like Maya, I feel it could be a cross between Maya being accused (eg 1-2) and Turnabout Big Top (after all, Max was an illusionist).

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Okay, so here's my idea for the last case of GS5:

Umm... Someone gets murdered and Ema gets accused. Since neither Klavier or the new prosecutor wants to prosecute her, a new prosecutor appears, like von Karma did in 1-4. Lana also appears as the main detective.

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How bout a case where you defend Vera, of being a forger?

Let's say Vera is aquitted of her previous crimes of forgery, because a) she had no idea what she was doing, and b) Drew was the one selling them. IRL I highly doubt she would be convicted. But come GS5, the police have reasonable grounds to suspect that she has now taken up Drew's mantle, and is continuing his business. This is because forgeries of work by a famous artist have been found, and the rough sketch shows one of Apollo's cases, matching Vera's MO.

The true "culprit" would be the famous artist himself, trying to frame Vera. Vera was forging artwork, and didn't get a conviction for it. Any artist would absolutely despise her. Also, he could make roughly double as much money with this scheme. The beauty of it is that he would have committed no crime. He simply knew of Vera's habit of sketching pictures about Apollo, maybe because of Spark Brushel. An article of his could be crucial evidence in Apollo's case that Vera has been framed.

The only problem with this idea is that it would be really easy to figure out. I'll have to think of elaborate ways the "culprit" could cover his tracks and pin it on Vera.

I think that's a very good idea.

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I like an idea where Apollo winds up falling for the murderer or the daughter of the murderer or something.
Except that has already been done (sort of):


Is it a good story twist? Maybe in the final case?

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Actually, I like this- it would be like Gumshoe-Maggey in 3-3. Gumshoe is forced to testify against Maggey, and if Klavier was forced to testify against Ema...

THAT would be fun to watch- I do support KlavierXEma.

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First, I'd like to see Phoenix get his badge back. Mostly because that line during the credits would kill me if he didn't. It would be like the card Franziska still hasn't given back to him. He'd turn the Agency back into Wright and Co. Law Offices (since Trucy doesn't really need her own Agency if she's the only one who actually has talent) and he'd play the mentor role to Apollo. He'd take a backseat to Apollo's storyline though, too busy with his own thing to pay him much attention except on certain occasions where he could help him with evidence or give him insight on past events/characters (assuming they show up).

Of course that idea has never been shared here.

But something I think would be interesting to see is another defense attorney who takes clients on whether he knows they're guilty or not. He'd become Apollo's main competition. Not sure how that would be implemented, but since the Prosecutor-Defense rivalry wasn't brought up in GS4, it's a thought. That and I have a feeling Klavier is still going to be in GS5 other than a Prosecutor who's actually aggressive towards Apollo. It's not exactly like he can "choose death".

Oh. And possibly more important than all of that, Apollo needs to stop being such a dunce.

I would rather to see more focus on Apollo and see him as the more of the main character and protagonist that goes through character development rather than the guy who you can play as while Phoenix saves the day. Such as delve more into his back story. And perhaps see some cases involving people from his own past with some connection with each other leading to the events of the last case..

I dunno if it's just me being obtuse, by Phoenix's line at the end



That really stuck with me. What does he mean by that? Unless I missed something in the game, I suspect that more of Phoenix's past is going to be part of GS5.

As much as I hate to admit it, I kinda see Phoenix being a victim as a real possibility; however, assuming that there will be 3 Apollo Justice games (like there were Phoenix Wright games), I kinda think that possibility won't happen until game 3. (This is, again, pure conjecture about what Capcom plans to do with the series and could be completely and entirely wrong.)

I really, REALLY want to see Apollo and Trucy discover who they are to each other.

I agree with hikari, more focus on Apollo's storyline please. Though I wouldnt mind Nick being Apollo's mentor, as long as he's not overshadowed (I speak as a Nick/Apollo fan). Nick as mentor or a defense tag team seems a good idea.
I think Apollo/Trucy may not discover who they are until Game 6 (assuming there are 3 AJ games).

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More focusing on Apollo? I agree.
But it'll be hard to forget him with Trucy still there.
Maybe he can appear, only as the head of the Jurist's system.

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Yeah, something like that maybe.

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@JoshuaOrrizonte:



I don't think that we're going to delve more into Phoenix's backstory anymore. They've revealed all that we've seen already and there isn't much that Capcom can do with him anymore.

And I do agree with Phoenix being the head of the jurist system thing. As long as he doesn't take the spotlight, I really don't mind.

Problem is, CAPCOM has hinted in the last line of the credts that Phoenix might retake the bar exam. I want Phoenix back more than Apollo, though.

If Phoenix turns into a lawyer and he turns the talent agency into law offices again, then people aren't going to go to Apollo for help. Phoenix would take all the cases, and Apollo wouldn't have any cases. Like Mia and Apollo. And what happened to Mia? She got murdered.

Oh god, Phoenix is gonna die.

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I'm not sure about that (that there isn't much that Capcom can do with him anymore). It seemed to be a little more than just Phoenix being empathic to Trucy at that moment. A recurring theme, although it was a little overshadowed, was family. Phoenix's family is never mentioned in the games, except to say that he didn't have any siblings.

If they DO return to Phoenix's backstory, I get the feeling his parents will be part of it. That's if, of course. I'd like that. I can be optimistic and say I think that's what they're going to do, but... well...

Phoenix as the head of the jurist system WOULD be nice. It would be a good explanation as to why he DOESN'T take the spotlight, if he retakes the bar.

A prequel to PW, Maybe?
Or maybe 'Gregory Edgeworth: Ace Attorney'! The final case, being the one leading up to his murder, against Von Karma.
Case Ideas:
Case 1: His first case, the defendant turning out to be Edgeworth's mother. Filler, no complicated details, easy as 2-1.
Case 2: Gregory's story skips ahead to when he is married, he has to defend either:
1.Phoenix's Father.
2. A new character.
If it was Phoenix's dad, you'd learn where we are in the timeline, before anyone is born. If not, It's just a filler.
Case 3: A total filler, no huge details. At the end, we learn Gregory's wife is pregnant.
Case 4: Skips ahead to when Miles in born. His wife is the victim and he must go into court with a new identity, seeing as he can't be related to the case to defend the victim, he wants to find her killer bad enough to do it.
Case 5: The final case, the prosecutor is Von Karma, of course, and it works up until the end, where you have to proove that Von Karma falsified evidence, which damages his record. At the last moment, Von Karma wins. After the trial, it shows him heading towards the elevator.
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Ugh, this came out of nowhere. xD

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That wouldn't work though, as we know it will end in tragedy, unless its AU.

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Yeah, but so did Mia's cases. D:

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True - maybe we could have 1 flashback case for that or a tutorial case but not a whole game, IMO.

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I think that would be impossible for Edgeworth's mother to be defendant since when Gregory Edgeworth died, Manfred took Miles in. If his mother were alive, then she should've been the one to take custody. So that probably means that his mother is likely already dead by the time his father was murdered.

I would like to see in GS5 is what I want to see in all DS games, a game which actually uses the DS functions in a manner which is not simply an akward clumsey attempt of just including something for the sake of it IE moving about in Harvest Moon or many port of games to the DS.

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@Hikari: I said that she was the victim in case 4, after she was the defendant...
Silly, huh?

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It would be awesome if Trucy and Apollo fell in love and then they get to know they are siblings and dont know what to do. Then Trucy get's kidnapped and Polly has to rescue her in a similiar way of 2-4.

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^ Incest, much?

I've had this idea for a case for a while. Trucy is staging a magic show for the students in a dormitory hall at Ivy University and invites Apollo as a VIP and to help her in the final act of her magic trick. During the final act, there's an area-wide blackout followed by the fire alarm. Everyone scrambles to the evacuate the premise. The fire department arrives with the police soon after and reports that there was no fire; instead, they discover the body of a student and a suspect is immediately identified. The next day, Apollo receives a telephone call from the person who was arrested and he takes their case.

The idea of this case is to make it difficult for both the defense and prosecution to make an argument; there was near zero visibility and no one inside the dorm saw anyone near the victim before then, add on the fact that there was pretty much chaos inside the halls with the fire alarm and you can imagine how difficult it would be for anyone to witness the crime. The true criminal tries as much as possible to attract attention away from the murder scene so that they can get in and get out with no witnesses.

Oh, and the victim isn't Wesley Stickler.

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